Discussion:
Trump and the Fourteenth Amendment
(too old to reply)
Charles H. Sampson
2015-08-25 07:32:29 UTC
Permalink
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.

Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.

I can see three classes of responses to this post. 1 - A direct answer
to the question as asked. 2 - Using the question as a jumping off point
to discuss what an idiot Trump is. 3 - Using the question as a jumping
off point to discuss what an idiot I am for asking it. I'm interested in
#1. While I agree with the sentiment of #2, I've read a lot of those and
I'm not particularly interested in reading more at the moment. Of
course, I'm really not interested in #3 at all.

Charlie
--
Nobody in this country got rich on his own. You built a factory--good.
But you moved your goods on roads we all paid for. You hired workers we
all paid to educate. So keep a big hunk of the money from your factory.
But take a hunk and pay it forward. Elizabeth Warren (paraphrased)
BTR1701
2015-08-25 09:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
We shouldn't be trying to "interpret" what "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" means.

We should just amend the 14th to eliminate birthright citizenship
altogether. Even nutty Dems like Harry Reid have said it's insane for a
country to have such a policy.
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-25 14:32:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
We shouldn't be trying to "interpret" what "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" means.
You missed the "and", it's "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof".
The ambassador and staff of foreign delegations are not subject to the
jurisdiction of the United States. Their children are not US citizens
by birth.
Post by BTR1701
We should just amend the 14th to eliminate birthright citizenship
altogether. Even nutty Dems like Harry Reid have said it's insane for a
country to have such a policy.
Wow. This puts you on the side of "Barb May", who had given us a
modern interpretation of Dred Scot in the Black Lives Matter bullshit
a few weeks ago. You want to re-think your position?

If Harry Reid believed in gravity, I would re-check Isaac Newton's
contribution to science.
Hunter >
2015-08-25 18:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
We shouldn't be trying to "interpret" what "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" means.
We should just amend the 14th to eliminate birthright citizenship
altogether. Even nutty Dems like Harry Reid have said it's insane for a
country to have such a policy.
----
Which will very likely fail given the amendment process and its high
hurtle.

The ironic thing is that illegal immigration has been falling and it
is forecasted to fall further in the coming years because of the aging
Latin American population with its falling birthrate:

"Behind the surprising drop in illegal immigration

By Linda Have
May 31, 2015 | 6:17pm

This might come as a shock, but far fewer people are sneaking into the
country across our southern border now than at any time in recent
memory.

At the height of the illegal-immigration crisis in 2000, 1.6 million
illegal immigrants entered the United States. Since 2012, the numbers
are down to about 400,000 — and they’ve gone down so far this fiscal
year by another 28 percent over last year.

That’s good news, yet many conservatives still fret about an illegal
invasion that threatens our very way of life.

Measuring the flow of illegal immigrants is difficult, which is why so
many people argue about the numbers incessantly.

A few years ago, I’d often encounter people who claimed there were 30
million illegal immigrants in the country, when demographers estimated
there were slightly more than 12 million.

So how do demographers come up with their numbers?

Most use data from a survey taken by the Census Bureau each March that
asks individuals in a very large and statistically controlled sample
to identify their country of birth, and compare the number born
outside the United

States with the number of permanent resident aliens, authorized
temporary workers, asylees and naturalized citizens known to be
present.

When the latter is subtracted from the former, the residual number of
persons are presumed to be illegally present after adjusting upward
for an estimated undercount of individuals likely missed in the
surveys.

But some researchers go even further by studying the populations in
other countries, principally Mexico, because traditionally it has been
the source of the largest number of our illegal immigrants.

Those studies show a remarkable decline not just in the number of
Mexicans immigrating illegally, but also in the number who desire to
come here.

Wayne Cornelius, who surveys Mexicans from the state of Yucatan, found
a precipitous decline in the number who said they were planning to
come to the United States, The Washington Post reports.

In 2006, 24 percent of those surveyed said they were planning to come
in the next 12 months. By 2009, during the economic recession, the
number had dropped to 8 percent. This year, it dropped all the way to
2.5 percent.

These numbers are supported by official statistics that show Chinese
immigrants replaced Mexicans as the largest group of new foreign-born
persons last year. The Mexican-born population in America has actually
declined in the past few years, for the first time since the Great
Depression.

So why aren’t conservatives applauding?

It’s clear that the economy has had some deterrent effect on illegal
immigration. Immigrants come here to work, and when the job market is
lousy, the risk and cost of immigrating makes less sense.

Demographic changes are another factor. Mexicans are having far fewer
children than in the past. In 1960, the average fertility rate for
Mexican women was 7.3 children; today it is 2.4, barely above the US
rate of 2.

Mexicans are better educated today than ever before, making more
opportunities available to them in their home country, whose economy
grew at a faster pace than the US economy following the recession.

But the major reason for less illegal immigration is better border
security. Even as the economy has improved, illegal immigration
continues to go down.

We’ve more than doubled our number of border agents to more than
18,000 now.

We spend more on Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Customs and
Border Protection and the Office of Biometric Identity Management —
some $16.2 billion last year — than we do on all other federal
criminal law-enforcement combined, including the FBI, Drug
Enforcement, Secret Service, Federal Marshal Service and Alcohol,
Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

But don’t expect to hear these facts from the fearmongers. It’s hard
to motivate people with good news, and it’s far easier to try to scare
them into giving or going to the polls."

http://nypost.com/2015/05/31/behind-the-surprising-drop-in-illegal-immigration/

I do believe we should better control our borders but if the idea is
that there is a horde of illegals coming in like no time before its
the wrong idea.

------>Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907
FPP
2015-08-25 21:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
We shouldn't be trying to "interpret" what "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" means.
We should just amend the 14th to eliminate birthright citizenship
altogether. Even nutty Dems like Harry Reid have said it's insane for a
country to have such a policy.
The longer they wait, the less likely it is that it will ever be done.

With the hispanic population on the rise, what chance do you think
there will be to get the states to go along with the idea?

And the sad part is, even if they manage to put forth a proposal,
chances are it won't be nasty enough to satisfy some people.
--
“If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the
newspaper, you're mis-informed.” ―Twain
BTR1701
2015-08-25 22:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by FPP
Post by BTR1701
Post by Charles H. Sampson
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Post by Charles H. Sampson
Post by Charles H. Sampson
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
We shouldn't be trying to "interpret" what "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" means.
Post by Charles H. Sampson
We should just amend the 14th to eliminate birthright citizenship
altogether. Even nutty Dems like Harry Reid have said it's insane for a
country to have such a policy.
The longer they wait, the less likely it is that it will ever be done.
With the hispanic population on the rise, what chance do you think there
will be to get the states to go along with the idea?
And the sad part is, even if they manage to put forth a proposal, chances
are it won't be nasty enough to satisfy some people.
What exactly is "nasty" about saying you don't get to make your kid a U.S.
citizen just because you managed to break the law and keep from getting
caught long enough to squeeze it out on our soil?
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-25 22:40:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by FPP
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided
that it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will
allow him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The
words "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United
States and of the State wherein they reside." don't seem to leave
a lot of room for interpretations.
We shouldn't be trying to "interpret" what "subject to the jurisdiction
thereof" means.
We should just amend the 14th to eliminate birthright citizenship
altogether. Even nutty Dems like Harry Reid have said it's insane
for a country to have such a policy.
The longer they wait, the less likely it is that it will ever be done.
With the hispanic population on the rise, what chance do you think there
will be to get the states to go along with the idea?
And the sad part is, even if they manage to put forth a proposal, chances
are it won't be nasty enough to satisfy some people.
These quotes are a huge mess of quoting level wreckage, 'cuz a whole
bunch of you are clueless about creating lines with format=flowed that
aren't long lines. I'll fix the quoting levels.
Post by BTR1701
What exactly is "nasty" about saying you don't get to make your kid a U.S.
citizen just because you managed to break the law and keep from getting
caught long enough to squeeze it out on our soil?
That's not a birth tourist, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread. Those
very pregnant women are travelling on visas and don't intend to immigrate.
BTR1701
2015-08-26 03:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by FPP
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided
that it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will
allow him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The
words "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United
States and of the State wherein they reside." don't seem to leave
a lot of room for interpretations.
We shouldn't be trying to "interpret" what "subject to the jurisdiction
thereof" means.
We should just amend the 14th to eliminate birthright citizenship
altogether. Even nutty Dems like Harry Reid have said it's insane
for a country to have such a policy.
The longer they wait, the less likely it is that it will ever be done.
With the hispanic population on the rise, what chance do you think there
will be to get the states to go along with the idea?
And the sad part is, even if they manage to put forth a proposal, chances
are it won't be nasty enough to satisfy some people.
These quotes are a huge mess of quoting level wreckage, 'cuz a whole
bunch of you are clueless about creating lines with format=flowed that
aren't long lines. I'll fix the quoting levels.
Post by BTR1701
What exactly is "nasty" about saying you don't get to make your kid
a U.S. citizen just because you managed to break the law and keep
from getting caught long enough to squeeze it out on our soil?
That's not a birth tourist, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
Those very pregnant women are travelling on visas and don't intend to
immigrate.
All those illegals are traveling on visas? Who knew?
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-26 03:31:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by FPP
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided
that it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will
allow him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The
words "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United
States and of the State wherein they reside." don't seem to leave
a lot of room for interpretations.
We shouldn't be trying to "interpret" what "subject to the jurisdiction
thereof" means.
We should just amend the 14th to eliminate birthright citizenship
altogether. Even nutty Dems like Harry Reid have said it's insane
for a country to have such a policy.
The longer they wait, the less likely it is that it will ever be done.
With the hispanic population on the rise, what chance do you think there
will be to get the states to go along with the idea?
And the sad part is, even if they manage to put forth a proposal, chances
are it won't be nasty enough to satisfy some people.
These quotes are a huge mess of quoting level wreckage, 'cuz a whole
bunch of you are clueless about creating lines with format=flowed that
aren't long lines. I'll fix the quoting levels.
Post by BTR1701
What exactly is "nasty" about saying you don't get to make your kid
a U.S. citizen just because you managed to break the law and keep
from getting caught long enough to squeeze it out on our soil?
That's not a birth tourist, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
Those very pregnant women are travelling on visas and don't intend to
immigrate.
All those illegals are traveling on visas? Who knew?
If they've immigrated, why the hell wouldn't they show up here before
the mother is pregnant at all? Just conceive here in the United States.

I don't believe for a minute that any significant number of extremely
pregnant women can sneak into the United States. C'mon.
FPP
2015-08-25 23:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by FPP
Post by BTR1701
Post by Charles H. Sampson
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Post by Charles H. Sampson
Post by Charles H. Sampson
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
We shouldn't be trying to "interpret" what "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" means.
Post by Charles H. Sampson
We should just amend the 14th to eliminate birthright citizenship
altogether. Even nutty Dems like Harry Reid have said it's insane for a
country to have such a policy.
The longer they wait, the less likely it is that it will ever be done.
With the hispanic population on the rise, what chance do you think there
will be to get the states to go along with the idea?
And the sad part is, even if they manage to put forth a proposal, chances
are it won't be nasty enough to satisfy some people.
What exactly is "nasty" about saying you don't get to make your kid a U.S.
citizen just because you managed to break the law and keep from getting
caught long enough to squeeze it out on our soil?
Well, obviously, THAT won't be enough for people like Steve (Cantaloupe
Calves) King, and His Royal Trumpness.

At the very least, they'll have to be stripped naked and paraded
through the streets first!
Charles H. Sampson
2015-08-26 07:49:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
We shouldn't be trying to "interpret" what "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" means.
We should just amend the 14th to eliminate birthright citizenship
altogether. Even nutty Dems like Harry Reid have said it's insane for a
country to have such a policy.
Until we do amend the Constitution, we're stuck with having to interpret
what its words mean. I haven't researched the question, but I'm pretty
sure that "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was meant to rule out
children of ambassadors and other such foreigners in the U. S. on
official business.

Charlie
--
Nobody in this country got rich on his own. You built a factory--good.
But you moved your goods on roads we all paid for. You hired workers we
all paid to educate. So keep a big hunk of the money from your factory.
But take a hunk and pay it forward. Elizabeth Warren (paraphrased)
Steve Bartman
2015-08-26 12:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
Post by BTR1701
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
We shouldn't be trying to "interpret" what "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" means.
We should just amend the 14th to eliminate birthright citizenship
altogether. Even nutty Dems like Harry Reid have said it's insane for a
country to have such a policy.
Until we do amend the Constitution, we're stuck with having to interpret
what its words mean. I haven't researched the question, but I'm pretty
sure that "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was meant to rule out
children of ambassadors and other such foreigners in the U. S. on
official business.
Charlie
I believe children of ambassadors are citizens, if they want to be.

I have read that one classic exception, not often seen, is children of
invading armies still in residence. I assume the child is not of rape
of a citizen female, but of a non-citizen woman brought here by the
invading army. Pretty rare.

I also believe that in the original wording it was considered that
Native Americans were not covered, as they occupied semi-sovereign
nations founded by treaty, still within the borders of the US and
still subject to a lot of types of federal oversight and meddling, but
not fully under the "jurisdiction" of the US since they had their own
reservation government, courts, and policies.

I also found the 1898 case often cited on the matter, "United States
vs. Kim Wong Ark." It concerned a Chinese man judged to be a US
citizen when his parents were Chinese immigrants. The Supreme Court
has never ruled specifically on citizenship status of children born to
illegal immigrants.

On Trump's view, I found this:

". . . To Trump’s point, there are some scholars who argue the 14th
Amendment allows birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants but
does not require it. This is a subtle but important point, because if
the Constitution does not require birthright citizenship, Congress
might be able to change the law without having to pass a
Constitutional amendment, an arduous process.

In any case, this viewpoint is held by only a handful of legal
scholars, not "many."

"I believe that Trump’s statement is incorrect," said Yale Law School
professor Peter Schuck, one of the leading scholars who has endorsed
this position. "I would say that our view on the constitutional issue
is decidedly the minority view."

The gist of the argument rests on the fact that the 14th Amendment
requires people to be born on U.S. soil and be "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" to receive citizenship at birth, as the
amendment says. To understand this point a little better, consider the
example of children of foreign diplomats born in the United States.
These children are not citizens because their parents have allegiance
to a foreign country and not the United States -- meaning they are not
subject to U.S. jurisdiction.

Some people interpret the inclusion of "jurisdiction" as requiring
mutual consent for citizenship: The person and the United States have
to agree that this person is eligible for citizenship. If the parent
is here illegally, does the United States agree that the child should
be eligible for citizenship? Congress could, according to this point
of view, decide that the answer to this question is "no," rendering
the 14th Amendment inapplicable to these children, without violating
the Constitution.

We won’t dig into this question further -- there’s a lot of history
and judicial precedent to digest on both sides of the argument. (If
you want to read more, we recommend this 2010 Congressional Research
Report.)

The small group of scholars who endorse this idea -- that Congress can
decide whether birthright citizenship extends to children of
undocumented immigrants -- is not strictly partisan. Schuck is a
self-described moderate, and he published the primary book on this
topic in the 1980s with University of Pennsylvania professor Rogers
Smith, who is liberal. Many of the scholars who have come out in
support of this view in the past few weeks have conservative
backgrounds, such as Edward Erler and John Eastman, both of the
conservative Claremont Institute think tank. But not all conservatives
share this point of view, either.

Also, at least one federal judge has said publicly that interpreting
the 14th Amendment in this way wouldn’t require changing the
Constitution: Hon. Richard Posner of the 7th Circuit, appointed by
President Ronald Reagan.

Still, these legal thinkers "are in a very small minority," said
Evelyn Cruz, director of the Immigration Law and Policy Clinic at
Arizona State University’s law school. "Most scholars believe that the
Constitution would need to be amended to achieve a reading opposite to
Wong Kim Ark." "

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/aug/25/donald-trump/trump-many-scholars-say-anchor-babies-arent-covere/



Steve
A Friend
2015-08-26 12:57:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Bartman
I also believe that in the original wording it was considered that
Native Americans were not covered, as they occupied semi-sovereign
nations founded by treaty, still within the borders of the US and
still subject to a lot of types of federal oversight and meddling, but
not fully under the "jurisdiction" of the US since they had their own
reservation government, courts, and policies.
That's right. There's a reasoned discussion here:

http://www.flashpointmag.com/amindus.htm

"After the Civil War when citizenship rights were extended through the
Fourteenth Amendment to ex-slaves and to '[a]ll persons born or
naturalized in the United States,' that Amendment still excluded
individual Indians from citizenship rights and excluded them from being
counted towards figuring congressional representation unless they paid
taxes. This demonstrates that Congress still considered Indians to be
citizens of other sovereign governments even in 1868 when the
Fourteenth Amendment was adopted. This view was correct because most
Indians did not become United States citizens until 1924 when Congress
passed a law making all Indians United States citizens. For many years
after 1924, states were still uncertain whether Indians were also
citizens of the state where they lived and in many states Indians were
not allowed to vote in state elections."
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-26 14:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Friend
Post by Steve Bartman
I also believe that in the original wording it was considered that
Native Americans were not covered, as they occupied semi-sovereign
nations founded by treaty, still within the borders of the US and
still subject to a lot of types of federal oversight and meddling, but
not fully under the "jurisdiction" of the US since they had their own
reservation government, courts, and policies.
http://www.flashpointmag.com/amindus.htm
"After the Civil War when citizenship rights were extended through the
Fourteenth Amendment to ex-slaves and to '[a]ll persons born or
naturalized in the United States,' that Amendment still excluded
individual Indians from citizenship rights and excluded them from being
counted towards figuring congressional representation unless they paid
taxes. This demonstrates that Congress still considered Indians to be
citizens of other sovereign governments even in 1868 when the
Fourteenth Amendment was adopted. This view was correct because most
Indians did not become United States citizens until 1924 when Congress
passed a law making all Indians United States citizens. For many years
after 1924, states were still uncertain whether Indians were also
citizens of the state where they lived and in many states Indians were
not allowed to vote in state elections."
I'm not aware that's changed, that they can vote in state elections if
they live on the reservation. The state lacks jurisdiction.

Christ, now I'm writing like Bartman.
The Horny Goat
2015-08-26 20:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Bartman
I believe children of ambassadors are citizens, if they want to be.
Really? Then why is the subject of
http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/08/19/canadian-diplomats-teen-son-charged-with-murder-denied-bail
claiming US citizenship?
Post by Steve Bartman
I have read that one classic exception, not often seen, is children of
invading armies still in residence. I assume the child is not of rape
of a citizen female, but of a non-citizen woman brought here by the
invading army. Pretty rare.
My wife's grandmother was the child of rape on an immigrant ship and
born in Buffalo, NY. Her birth was registered in the Catholic
cathedral there - but her and her mother were returned to their home
country when she was under 6 months. She did NOT acquire US
citizenship.

This was very early in the 20th century and it is highly likely laws
have changed in the interim. (I personally know that with respect to
children of parents where only 1 parent is a citizen the laws have
changed multiple times in the last 50 years)
Post by Steve Bartman
The gist of the argument rests on the fact that the 14th Amendment
requires people to be born on U.S. soil and be "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" to receive citizenship at birth, as the
amendment says. To understand this point a little better, consider the
example of children of foreign diplomats born in the United States.
These children are not citizens because their parents have allegiance
to a foreign country and not the United States -- meaning they are not
subject to U.S. jurisdiction.
This would require a more precise definition since aliens without
legal status in the United States would also have allegiance to a
foreign country rather than the United States.

It's relevant to note that the judge who tried William Joyce (aka
"Lord Haw Haw") denied the defence that as a non-British national
Joyce owed no allegiance to the UK as the evidence showed he had
entered the UK on a forged British passport and that while that didn't
make him a British citizen DID say that he was claiming the rights and
duties (i.e. allegiance) of a Briton - and on that basis convicted him
of treason and Joyce was hung.
Steve Bartman
2015-08-26 22:27:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Steve Bartman
I believe children of ambassadors are citizens, if they want to be.
Really? Then why is the subject of
http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/08/19/canadian-diplomats-teen-son-charged-with-murder-denied-bail
claiming US citizenship?
I corrected myself. You must have missed it.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Steve Bartman
I have read that one classic exception, not often seen, is children of
invading armies still in residence. I assume the child is not of rape
of a citizen female, but of a non-citizen woman brought here by the
invading army. Pretty rare.
My wife's grandmother was the child of rape on an immigrant ship and
born in Buffalo, NY. Her birth was registered in the Catholic
cathedral there - but her and her mother were returned to their home
country when she was under 6 months. She did NOT acquire US
citizenship.
The child was a US citizen. There's no doubt of that. If the mother
was deported and took an infant too young to protest then she did. But
the child was a citizen as soon as she was born in NY. Due process was
often not strictly observed that long ago, but it was still right
there in the 14th.
Post by The Horny Goat
This was very early in the 20th century and it is highly likely laws
have changed in the interim. (I personally know that with respect to
children of parents where only 1 parent is a citizen the laws have
changed multiple times in the last 50 years)
Laws on parentage only matter where the birth is outside the territory
of the USA.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Steve Bartman
The gist of the argument rests on the fact that the 14th Amendment
requires people to be born on U.S. soil and be "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" to receive citizenship at birth, as the
amendment says. To understand this point a little better, consider the
example of children of foreign diplomats born in the United States.
These children are not citizens because their parents have allegiance
to a foreign country and not the United States -- meaning they are not
subject to U.S. jurisdiction.
This would require a more precise definition since aliens without
legal status in the United States would also have allegiance to a
foreign country rather than the United States.
Legally, "allegiance" does not equal "jurisdiction." The latter word
literally means, from Latin "where the law speaks." The 1898 case
cites elsewhere was on this exact issue, whether the Chinese child's
parents had left the Chinese emperor's jurisdiction while in the USA
and whether they had re-entered it when they traveled overseas and
then attempted to return. The Court found that they had not left US
jurisdiction.

If an alien without legal status in the US nevertheless owns a home
here, has a job, has children in school, pays all or some taxes, is
subject to federal, state, and local law enforcement, and has not left
the US for a decade it's a pretty tough argument to make that they are
not in the jurisdiction of the US.
Post by The Horny Goat
It's relevant to note that the judge who tried William Joyce (aka
"Lord Haw Haw") denied the defence that as a non-British national
Joyce owed no allegiance to the UK as the evidence showed he had
entered the UK on a forged British passport and that while that didn't
make him a British citizen DID say that he was claiming the rights and
duties (i.e. allegiance) of a Briton - and on that basis convicted him
of treason and Joyce was hung.
Which is interesting but irrelevant to the 14th Amendment.

Steve
The Horny Goat
2015-08-28 20:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Bartman
If an alien without legal status in the US nevertheless owns a home
here, has a job, has children in school, pays all or some taxes, is
subject to federal, state, and local law enforcement, and has not left
the US for a decade it's a pretty tough argument to make that they are
not in the jurisdiction of the US.
Particularly if they commit an offence in the US even if as minor as
overtime parking.
Post by Steve Bartman
Post by The Horny Goat
It's relevant to note that the judge who tried William Joyce (aka
"Lord Haw Haw") denied the defence that as a non-British national
Joyce owed no allegiance to the UK as the evidence showed he had
entered the UK on a forged British passport and that while that didn't
make him a British citizen DID say that he was claiming the rights and
duties (i.e. allegiance) of a Briton - and on that basis convicted him
of treason and Joyce was hung.
Which is interesting but irrelevant to the 14th Amendment.
No - this was a case where false documents were used to work against
the defendant to give the UK jurisdiction to hold him guilty. Had he
entered the UK on a US or Irish passport (both of which he was
entitled to) he could not have been hung for treason. Doubtless he
would have been convicted of other major crimes but nothing of a
capital nature - compare Axis Sally (who was a Filipino national who
at that time were judged to owe allegiance to the USA)
Steve Bartman
2015-08-28 20:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Steve Bartman
If an alien without legal status in the US nevertheless owns a home
here, has a job, has children in school, pays all or some taxes, is
subject to federal, state, and local law enforcement, and has not left
the US for a decade it's a pretty tough argument to make that they are
not in the jurisdiction of the US.
Particularly if they commit an offence in the US even if as minor as
overtime parking.
Strip away everything I said and reduce it to this. Is a pregnant
illegal immigrant subject to arrest and trial in US courts for
ANYTHING? Is so, she's in US jurisdiction.

BTW, this is me agreeing with you.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Steve Bartman
Post by The Horny Goat
It's relevant to note that the judge who tried William Joyce (aka
"Lord Haw Haw") denied the defence that as a non-British national
Joyce owed no allegiance to the UK as the evidence showed he had
entered the UK on a forged British passport and that while that didn't
make him a British citizen DID say that he was claiming the rights and
duties (i.e. allegiance) of a Briton - and on that basis convicted him
of treason and Joyce was hung.
Which is interesting but irrelevant to the 14th Amendment.
No - this was a case where false documents were used to work against
the defendant to give the UK jurisdiction to hold him guilty. Had he
entered the UK on a US or Irish passport (both of which he was
entitled to) he could not have been hung for treason. Doubtless he
would have been convicted of other major crimes but nothing of a
capital nature - compare Axis Sally (who was a Filipino national who
at that time were judged to owe allegiance to the USA)
Again, this is interesting, but not on point as to the US 14th
Amendment. Not holding a US passport is not evidence of
non-citizenship. Most US citizens don't have passports. Nor is UK law
on Jus soli exactly in congruence with the US as our court decisions
don't mirror theirs nor do they have a written constitution with a
14th Amendment worded as ours is worded. The issue here is
citizenship, not treason.

Steve
Ed Stasiak
2015-08-28 20:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Steve Bartman
Is a pregnant illegal immigrant subject to arrest and trial in US courts
for ANYTHING? Is so, she's in US jurisdiction.
If a foreign citizen in the U.S. is arrested for a crime, does he suddenly
become an American citizen? Of course not, yet they would still be
prosecuted according to American law.

If all it took to become a citizen was being subject to a nations laws, then
a traveler's citizenship would change every time they got off an airplane
in a foreign country.

And that being the case, why does simply being born on this side of the
border, suddenly grant the baby automatic citizenship?

Clearly "subject to the jurisdiction of" means a legal American citizen, not
anyone of any nationality who happens to be in the country at the moment.
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-28 21:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
Steve Bartman
Is a pregnant illegal immigrant subject to arrest and trial in US courts
for ANYTHING? Is so, she's in US jurisdiction.
If a foreign citizen in the U.S. is arrested for a crime, does he suddenly
become an American citizen? Of course not, yet they would still be
prosecuted according to American law.
Oh stop it, Ed; you're deliberately misreading the plain language of
the amendment's citizenship clause.
Post by Ed Stasiak
If all it took to become a citizen was being subject to a nations laws, then
a traveler's citizenship would change every time they got off an airplane
in a foreign country.
The clause doesn't say that either; it strictly addresses the birthright.
Post by Ed Stasiak
And that being the case, why does simply being born on this side of the
border, suddenly grant the baby automatic citizenship?
Because the clause applies to "all persons born or naturalized", that's why.
Post by Ed Stasiak
Clearly "subject to the jurisdiction of" means a legal American citizen, not
anyone of any nationality who happens to be in the country at the moment.
You get yourself appointed to the US Supreme Court, and then you can
say that. Until you do, the Wong majority applies.

You've just made US law inapplicable to resident aliens. Good going!
FPP
2015-08-28 22:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
Steve Bartman
Is a pregnant illegal immigrant subject to arrest and trial in US courts
for ANYTHING? Is so, she's in US jurisdiction.
If a foreign citizen in the U.S. is arrested for a crime, does he suddenly
become an American citizen? Of course not, yet they would still be
prosecuted according to American law.
If all it took to become a citizen was being subject to a nations laws, then
a traveler's citizenship would change every time they got off an airplane
in a foreign country.
And that being the case, why does simply being born on this side of the
border, suddenly grant the baby automatic citizenship?
Clearly "subject to the jurisdiction of" means a legal American citizen, not
anyone of any nationality who happens to be in the country at the moment.
No, Ed... not clear at all.

If you are in the country illegally, and murder someone - are you not
arrested and tried?

If the answer is yes, then you are clearly subject to the jurisdiction
of the US.

It doesn't make you a citizen... but your birth here obviously does.
--
Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken. - Oscar Wilde
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-28 20:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Steve Bartman
If an alien without legal status in the US nevertheless owns a home
here, has a job, has children in school, pays all or some taxes, is
subject to federal, state, and local law enforcement, and has not left
the US for a decade it's a pretty tough argument to make that they are
not in the jurisdiction of the US.
Particularly if they commit an offence in the US even if as minor as
overtime parking.
Technically, that gives the car a record, so if the car reproduces
in the US...
Tom Benton
2015-08-27 19:11:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Steve Bartman
I believe children of ambassadors are citizens, if they want to be.
Really? Then why is the subject of
http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/08/19/canadian-diplomats-teen-son-charged-with-murder-denied-bail
claiming US citizenship?
Post by Steve Bartman
I have read that one classic exception, not often seen, is children of
invading armies still in residence. I assume the child is not of rape
of a citizen female, but of a non-citizen woman brought here by the
invading army. Pretty rare.
My wife's grandmother was the child of rape on an immigrant ship and
born in Buffalo, NY. Her birth was registered in the Catholic
cathedral there - but her and her mother were returned to their home
country when she was under 6 months. She did NOT acquire US
citizenship.
This was very early in the 20th century and it is highly likely laws
have changed in the interim. (I personally know that with respect to
children of parents where only 1 parent is a citizen the laws have
changed multiple times in the last 50 years)
Post by Steve Bartman
The gist of the argument rests on the fact that the 14th Amendment
requires people to be born on U.S. soil and be "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" to receive citizenship at birth, as the
amendment says. To understand this point a little better, consider the
example of children of foreign diplomats born in the United States.
These children are not citizens because their parents have allegiance
to a foreign country and not the United States -- meaning they are not
subject to U.S. jurisdiction.
How's that? Are you saying ISIS terrorist who has "allegiance" to
the "Islamic State" isn't subject to US jurisdiction if he, or she,
commits a crime here? I can see that if the terrorist has diplomatic
immunity, he or she isn't subject to our jurisdiction but such
exceptions are pretty well delineated.
______________________________

Tom Benton

"It's not a mistake. It's a variation."
The Horny Goat
2015-08-28 20:34:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Benton
How's that? Are you saying ISIS terrorist who has "allegiance" to
the "Islamic State" isn't subject to US jurisdiction if he, or she,
commits a crime here? I can see that if the terrorist has diplomatic
immunity, he or she isn't subject to our jurisdiction but such
exceptions are pretty well delineated.
I assure you that if I didn't think the judge would laugh himself
silly if presented with the plea that the Traffic Court Judge of
Whatcom County didn't have jurisdiction over a speeding violation done
by a Canadian (me) last April I would have disputed my US speeding
ticket last April!

[Somehow the fact that the speed I was clocked at would have been
within Canadian highway speed limits wouldn't have carried much
weight!]

Uh - besides diplomatic immunity what other exemptions are there in
the US? (Foreign military troops on US soil are definitely subject to
US law - don't assume invasion, allied nations train on US bases all
the time and if they misbehave ... well that's why the arm of the law
is long!)
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-28 20:56:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Uh - besides diplomatic immunity what other exemptions are there in
the US? (Foreign military troops on US soil are definitely subject to
US law - don't assume invasion, allied nations train on US bases all
the time and if they misbehave ... well that's why the arm of the law
is long!)
Baby born in transit through the United States, next port of call outside
the United States

Any traveller awaiting the customers and immigration check to enter
the United States is outside the jurisdiction; no constitutional
protections here.

How about the opposite issue: A birth at a US embassy or consulate?
That would be a natural born citizen of the United States.
Steve Bartman
2015-08-28 21:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Uh - besides diplomatic immunity what other exemptions are there in
the US? (Foreign military troops on US soil are definitely subject to
US law - don't assume invasion, allied nations train on US bases all
the time and if they misbehave ... well that's why the arm of the law
is long!)
It depends on the Status of Forces Agreement with their nation. Same
as our troops in theirs.


Steve
Steve Bartman
2015-08-26 12:37:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
Until we do amend the Constitution, we're stuck with having to interpret
what its words mean. I haven't researched the question, but I'm pretty
sure that "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was meant to rule out
children of ambassadors and other such foreigners in the U. S. on
official business.
Charlie
To amend my post, I read more and it appears that under the English
doctrine of Jus soli, which the 14th codifies here, children of
ambassadors and children of occupying armies ARE the two classic
exceptions.


Steve
Stan Brown
2015-08-25 11:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I can see three classes of responses to this post. 1 - A direct answer
to the question as asked. 2 - Using the question as a jumping off point
to discuss what an idiot Trump is. 3 - Using the question as a jumping
off point to discuss what an idiot I am for asking it. I'm interested in
#1. While I agree with the sentiment of #2, I've read a lot of those and
I'm not particularly interested in reading more at the moment. Of
course, I'm really not interested in #3 at all.
You're missing the right answer:

4. What the f--- does this have to do with TV? Why don't you ask on
alt.talk.politics, where you'd be on topic?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...
Make America Great Again!
2015-08-25 16:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I can see three classes of responses to this post. 1 - A direct answer
to the question as asked. 2 - Using the question as a jumping off point
to discuss what an idiot Trump is. 3 - Using the question as a jumping
off point to discuss what an idiot I am for asking it. I'm interested in
#1. While I agree with the sentiment of #2, I've read a lot of those and
I'm not particularly interested in reading more at the moment. Of
course, I'm really not interested in #3 at all.
4. What the f--- does this have to do with TV? Why don't you ask on
alt.talk.politics, where you'd be on topic?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...
sounds like one little fellow is not watching his/her Reality TV shows ...and a Spammer to boot!
Ubiquitous
2015-08-25 09:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
The 14th amendment was never meant to create "anchor babies".

https://www.conservativereview.com/Commentary/2015/08/fixing-the-birthright-citizenship-loophole-myth-vs-fact

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2005/12/birthright-citizenship-and-the-constitution

And you posted this off-topic article here because?


--
The Democrat debate is still not scheduled. The delay is due to
Hillary's insistence on finding a moderator who won't ask questions.
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-25 14:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
The 14th amendment was never meant to create "anchor babies".
https://www.conservativereview.com/Commentary/2015/08/fixing-the-birthright-citizenship-loophole-myth-vs-fact
Bullshit.

Fortunately we need not speculate about their intent.
The intent of the framers was crystal clear. The purpose of
this amendment was to overturn the Dred Scott case and ensure
guaranteed citizenship to all former black slaves born in American,
and likely living here for generations. At the same time they
wanted to limit citizenship to those subject to our jurisdiction,
which excludes those who are not legal permanent residents of
this country and certainly illegal aliens.

Illegal aliens sure as fuck are subject to laws of the United States and
to state and local law. I'm not reading the article at the other URL.
Charles H. Sampson
2015-08-26 07:49:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
The 14th amendment was never meant to create "anchor babies".
Probably true. I doubt that the idea of "anchor baby" crossed the minds
of the people at the time the amendment was written and passed.
Nonetheless, the words are pretty clear.
https://www.conservativereview.com/Commentary/2015/08/fixing-the-birthri
ght-citizenship-loophole-myth-vs-fact
Post by Ubiquitous
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2005/12/birthright-citizenship-and-
the-constitution
And you posted this off-topic article here because?
Because, as I tried to indicate, most of this Trump phenomenon is
TV-related.

Charlie
--
Nobody in this country got rich on his own. You built a factory--good.
But you moved your goods on roads we all paid for. You hired workers we
all paid to educate. So keep a big hunk of the money from your factory.
But take a hunk and pay it forward. Elizabeth Warren (paraphrased)
A Friend
2015-08-26 09:16:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
Post by Ubiquitous
The 14th amendment was never meant to create "anchor babies".
Probably true. I doubt that the idea of "anchor baby" crossed the minds
of the people at the time the amendment was written and passed.
Nonetheless, the words are pretty clear.
Yes, they are. The 14th Amendment was passed to reverse the Dred Scott
decision, which denied citizenship even to freeborn blacks. The 14th
also protects current citizens from the kind of ancestor challenge
employed by some other countries. The feds want to get you out of the
country? Without the 14th, all they'd have to do is prove that your
g'g'g'great grandmother entered the U.S. illegally, and out you'd go.

"Anchor babies" are an unintended consequence of the 14th. I don't
know what you might do about them, but you can't deny them citizenship
without amending the Constitution, and there is no will to do that.
Attempts to deny benefits to mothers who cross the border to give birth
to a citizen would be one way to deal with it, but such measures have
been routinely rejected by the courts.
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-26 14:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Friend
Post by Charles H. Sampson
Post by Ubiquitous
The 14th amendment was never meant to create "anchor babies".
Probably true. I doubt that the idea of "anchor baby" crossed the minds
of the people at the time the amendment was written and passed.
Nonetheless, the words are pretty clear.
Yes, they are. The 14th Amendment was passed to reverse the Dred Scott
decision, which denied citizenship even to freeborn blacks. . . .
The O.P. corrected me. The Dred Scott decision wasn't new federal policy.
That was in the law of 1790.
Post by A Friend
"Anchor babies" are an unintended consequence of the 14th. I don't
know what you might do about them, but you can't deny them citizenship
without amending the Constitution, and there is no will to do that.
Attempts to deny benefits to mothers who cross the border to give birth
to a citizen would be one way to deal with it, but such measures have
been routinely rejected by the courts.
"Anchor baby" is an assumption that the mother, an illegal alien, gets
to remain in the United States to raise her child, a US citizen. That's
different than birth tourism, in which the mother doesn't necessarily
attempt to immigrate by overstaying her tourist visa.

We do deny benefits to the mother.
The Horny Goat
2015-08-26 20:29:19 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:28:55 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by A Friend
"Anchor babies" are an unintended consequence of the 14th. I don't
know what you might do about them, but you can't deny them citizenship
without amending the Constitution, and there is no will to do that.
Attempts to deny benefits to mothers who cross the border to give birth
to a citizen would be one way to deal with it, but such measures have
been routinely rejected by the courts.
"Anchor baby" is an assumption that the mother, an illegal alien, gets
to remain in the United States to raise her child, a US citizen. That's
different than birth tourism, in which the mother doesn't necessarily
attempt to immigrate by overstaying her tourist visa.
We do deny benefits to the mother.
The easier solution would be to give US born children the legal status
of their parents. (If the parents have different status then the child
would get the more favorable of the two - this was the situation in my
case)

The courts have created a mess not easily repairable - Canadian courts
have ruled a child born in a jumbo jet (which was not a Canadian
carrier) overflying Canadian airspace which both took off from and
landed from non-Canadian locations nevertheless acquired Canadian
citizenship. At no time was any suggestion made that the parents of
this child had any connection to Canada nor wished to have one
themselves.

[In my own case, I was the child of an American father and Canadian
mother who were living in San Francsico when I was conceived but Mom
was sent home to her parents in Vancouver two months before I was born
since they were fresh out of college and then as now it is much less
costly to have a child in Canada than the US. I'm eligible for US
citizenship but this is NOT transferable to my children so now that
I'm approaching 60 where's the benefit?]
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-26 20:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by A Friend
"Anchor babies" are an unintended consequence of the 14th. I don't
know what you might do about them, but you can't deny them citizenship
without amending the Constitution, and there is no will to do that.
Attempts to deny benefits to mothers who cross the border to give birth
to a citizen would be one way to deal with it, but such measures have
been routinely rejected by the courts.
"Anchor baby" is an assumption that the mother, an illegal alien, gets
to remain in the United States to raise her child, a US citizen. That's
different than birth tourism, in which the mother doesn't necessarily
attempt to immigrate by overstaying her tourist visa.
We do deny benefits to the mother.
The easier solution would be to give US born children the legal status
of their parents. (If the parents have different status then the child
would get the more favorable of the two - this was the situation in my
case)
The courts have created a mess not easily repairable - Canadian courts
have ruled a child born in a jumbo jet (which was not a Canadian
carrier) overflying Canadian airspace which both took off from and
landed from non-Canadian locations nevertheless acquired Canadian
citizenship. At no time was any suggestion made that the parents of
this child had any connection to Canada nor wished to have one
themselves.
How exactly did that come up? You'd register the birth in the jurisdiction
of the airport when the plane lands, then the airline would arrest the
parents for the stowaway.
Post by The Horny Goat
[In my own case, I was the child of an American father and Canadian
mother who were living in San Francsico when I was conceived but Mom
was sent home to her parents in Vancouver two months before I was born
since they were fresh out of college and then as now it is much less
costly to have a child in Canada than the US. I'm eligible for US
citizenship but this is NOT transferable to my children so now that
I'm approaching 60 where's the benefit?]
IRS should hit you up for 45 years of back taxes.
The Horny Goat
2015-08-27 00:21:25 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Aug 2015 20:48:19 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
[In my own case, I was the child of an American father and Canadian
mother who were living in San Francsico when I was conceived but Mom
was sent home to her parents in Vancouver two months before I was born
since they were fresh out of college and then as now it is much less
costly to have a child in Canada than the US. I'm eligible for US
citizenship but this is NOT transferable to my children so now that
I'm approaching 60 where's the benefit?]
IRS should hit you up for 45 years of back taxes.
Heh heh - well having to file a second return annually would of course
be the major annoyance of having a second citizenship and again - at
this stage in my life why would one need a complicating factor? If I'm
not doing it for my children then why? In any case, given the higher
Canadian marginal tax rate and the laws allowing a deduction for taxes
paid to foreign governments the point would be moot. (In other words,
I'd be in trouble for not filing, not for non-payment)

It's not as if Canadians and Americans have any real difficulty
crossing the border either way. I'd argue US Immigration chronically
understaffs the US border crossings in the Vancouver area which given
the role of Canadian money in the economy of Whatcom County WA (i.e.
the border county) seems perverse but whatever.

One Canadian prime minister said "The United States is our best friend
- whether we like it or not" which while true is disingenuous since if
you asked any Pole whether they'd prefer Russians or Germans or
Americans as their next door neighbor they would think you were insane
for asking such an obvious question. For all their respective "warts",
there are numerous reasons why both the US and Canada are extremely
attractive to immigrants after all and have been for a very long time.
We are doing a few things right as nations to be so attractive.

For the record 'anchor babies' is more than just an American issue -
you have the same kinds of discussions taking place in Canada and in
Hong Kong where the subject mostly concerns Mainland Chinese. I'm sure
there are other countries with this issue as well.
Lesmond
2015-08-27 05:28:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
The courts have created a mess not easily repairable - Canadian courts
have ruled a child born in a jumbo jet (which was not a Canadian
carrier) overflying Canadian airspace which both took off from and
landed from non-Canadian locations nevertheless acquired Canadian
citizenship. At no time was any suggestion made that the parents of
this child had any connection to Canada nor wished to have one
themselves.
How exactly did that come up? You'd register the birth in the jurisdiction
of the airport when the plane lands, then the airline would arrest the
parents for the stowaway.
This made me laugh. Thank you.
--
If there's a nuclear winter, at least it'll snow.
trotsky
2015-08-27 13:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesmond
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
The courts have created a mess not easily repairable - Canadian courts
have ruled a child born in a jumbo jet (which was not a Canadian
carrier) overflying Canadian airspace which both took off from and
landed from non-Canadian locations nevertheless acquired Canadian
citizenship. At no time was any suggestion made that the parents of
this child had any connection to Canada nor wished to have one
themselves.
How exactly did that come up? You'd register the birth in the jurisdiction
of the airport when the plane lands, then the airline would arrest the
parents for the stowaway.
This made me laugh. Thank you.
Good luck with the cracked face.
Steve Bartman
2015-08-26 22:28:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:28:55 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by A Friend
"Anchor babies" are an unintended consequence of the 14th. I don't
know what you might do about them, but you can't deny them citizenship
without amending the Constitution, and there is no will to do that.
Attempts to deny benefits to mothers who cross the border to give birth
to a citizen would be one way to deal with it, but such measures have
been routinely rejected by the courts.
"Anchor baby" is an assumption that the mother, an illegal alien, gets
to remain in the United States to raise her child, a US citizen. That's
different than birth tourism, in which the mother doesn't necessarily
attempt to immigrate by overstaying her tourist visa.
We do deny benefits to the mother.
The easier solution would be to give US born children the legal status
of their parents. (If the parents have different status then the child
would get the more favorable of the two - this was the situation in my
case)
That's not an easy solution at all. It requires amending the
Constitution.



Steve
Hunter >
2015-08-25 12:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
I can see three classes of responses to this post. 1 - A direct answer
to the question as asked.
-----
No there isn't room for interpretation, not after two hundred years of
experience including over 150 years of illegals of all kinds having
children here and their citizenship not being questioned or at least
not questioned successfully.

------>Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907
BTR1701
2015-08-25 13:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hunter >
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
I can see three classes of responses to this post. 1 - A direct answer
to the question as asked.
-----
No there isn't room for interpretation, not after two hundred years of
experience
No, Hunter, the 14th Amendment was passed in 1868, which means it's only
been in effect for 147 years, not 200.
trotsky
2015-08-26 00:58:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Hunter >
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
I can see three classes of responses to this post. 1 - A direct answer
to the question as asked.
-----
No there isn't room for interpretation, not after two hundred years of
experience
No, Hunter, the 14th Amendment was passed in 1868, which means it's only
been in effect for 147 years, not 200.
And that changes what, exactly?
Hunter >
2015-08-26 10:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Hunter >
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
I can see three classes of responses to this post. 1 - A direct answer
to the question as asked.
-----
No there isn't room for interpretation, not after two hundred years of
experience
No, Hunter, the 14th Amendment was passed in 1868, which means it's only
been in effect for 147 years, not 200.
-----
As usual you are deceptive. This is what I said:

"No there isn't room for interpretation, not after two hundred years
of experience including over 150 years of illegals of all kinds having
children here and their citizenship not being questioned or at least
not questioned successfully."

I got the date a little wrong by saying "over" but I did take into
account the ratification of the 14th amendment. The other years prior
are the tradition they drew from.

I will say I was too absolute when I said "No there isn't room for
interpretation, there is some, but it is held by a minority of legal
scholars if a child born of illegal aliens on US soil isn't
automatically a US citizen, but my point still stands to use 147 years
in that after 147 years illegals of all kinds were having children
here and their citizenship has not been questioned, or at least not
questioned successfully, in court. If it was then it wouldn't be an
issue assuming someone raised it in the first place.

------>Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907
Ubiquitous
2015-08-25 13:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hunter >
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided
that it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will
allow him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The
words "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United
States and of the State wherein they reside." don't seem to leave
a lot of room for interpretations.
No there isn't room for interpretation, not after two hundred years of
experience including over 150 years of illegals of all kinds having
children here and their citizenship not being questioned or at least
not questioned successfully.
For starters, the 14th Amendment is only about 150 years old.

--
The Democrat debate is still not scheduled. The delay is due to
Hillary's insistence on finding a moderator who won't ask questions.
Barry Margolin
2015-08-25 14:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
The 14th Amendment doesn't prevent you from deporting the parents, and
the baby is not likely to be interested in staying without mom.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
Steve Bartman
2015-08-25 21:58:46 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 10:21:42 -0400, Barry Margolin
Post by Barry Margolin
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
The 14th Amendment doesn't prevent you from deporting the parents, and
the baby is not likely to be interested in staying without mom.
Maybe, theoretically. But every deportee gets due process in front of
a judge and that judge can order the deportment to stop if it harms
the interests of the child.

What happens if the parents ARE deported but refuse to take their
citizen children along? The US taxpayer cares for the kids.



Steve
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-25 14:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
I can see three classes of responses to this post. 1 - A direct answer
to the question as asked. 2 - Using the question as a jumping off point
to discuss what an idiot Trump is. 3 - Using the question as a jumping
off point to discuss what an idiot I am for asking it. I'm interested in
#1. While I agree with the sentiment of #2, I've read a lot of those and
I'm not particularly interested in reading more at the moment. Of
course, I'm really not interested in #3 at all.
Too bad. You're an idiot for declaring this on topic in a tv newsgroup.
David Johnston
2015-08-25 15:58:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat?
Trump's appeals to nativism aren't concerned with how to carry out
anything in the real world. But if he were to get elected he could act
on that just by proposing an amendment.
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-25 16:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat?
Trump's appeals to nativism aren't concerned with how to carry out
anything in the real world. But if he were to get elected he could act
on that just by proposing an amendment.
Johnston, I've asked you numerous times not to contribute further STOOPID
to threads with sufficient STOOPID. You are entirely ignorant of US law.
That is not a presidential power. The president of the United States has
no control over the constitution, cannot introduce amendments, cannot
vote on amendments.

Wrong again, johnston.
David Johnston
2015-08-25 16:57:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by David Johnston
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat?
Trump's appeals to nativism aren't concerned with how to carry out
anything in the real world. But if he were to get elected he could act
on that just by proposing an amendment.
Johnston, I've asked you numerous times not to contribute further STOOPID
to threads with sufficient STOOPID. You are entirely ignorant of US law.
That is not a presidential power. T
No "presidential power" is needed to propose a constitutional amendment.
People propose constitutional amendments all the time. It's just that
a little more attention is paid when it's the President doing it.
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-25 18:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by David Johnston
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat?
Trump's appeals to nativism aren't concerned with how to carry out
anything in the real world. But if he were to get elected he could act
on that just by proposing an amendment.
Johnston, I've asked you numerous times not to contribute further STOOPID
to threads with sufficient STOOPID. You are entirely ignorant of US law.
That is not a presidential power. T
No "presidential power" is needed to propose a constitutional amendment.
People propose constitutional amendments all the time. It's just that
a little more attention is paid when it's the President doing it.
And there's a further contribution of STOOPID. Trump has ALREADY called
publicly to amend the Constitution. He cannot act on proposing an
amendment as president. It's not a presidential power.

Either own up to your error or shove your foot so far down your throat
that you never post STOOPID to Usenet again.
David Johnston
2015-08-25 18:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by David Johnston
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by David Johnston
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat?
Trump's appeals to nativism aren't concerned with how to carry out
anything in the real world. But if he were to get elected he could act
on that just by proposing an amendment.
Johnston, I've asked you numerous times not to contribute further STOOPID
to threads with sufficient STOOPID. You are entirely ignorant of US law.
That is not a presidential power. T
No "presidential power" is needed to propose a constitutional amendment.
People propose constitutional amendments all the time. It's just that
a little more attention is paid when it's the President doing it.
And there's a further contribution of STOOPID. Trump has ALREADY called
publicly to amend the Constitution. He cannot act on proposing an
amendment as president.
He would however be in a better position to lobby for Congress to take
his proposal seriously.
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-25 18:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by David Johnston
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by David Johnston
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat?
Trump's appeals to nativism aren't concerned with how to carry out
anything in the real world. But if he were to get elected he could act
on that just by proposing an amendment.
Johnston, I've asked you numerous times not to contribute further STOOPID
to threads with sufficient STOOPID. You are entirely ignorant of US law.
That is not a presidential power. T
No "presidential power" is needed to propose a constitutional amendment.
People propose constitutional amendments all the time. It's just that
a little more attention is paid when it's the President doing it.
And there's a further contribution of STOOPID. Trump has ALREADY called
publicly to amend the Constitution. He cannot act on proposing an
amendment as president.
He would however be in a better position to lobby for Congress to take
his proposal seriously.
Really, Johnston? He can't donate money to their political campaigns
any longer. There's not going to be any horsetrading involved in
introducing an amendment, easily blocked by a not especially large
minority.

Johnston, instead of contributing further STOOPID, instead of moving
goalposts, just own up to your error. Then, shut the fuck up and
stop contributing ignorance to discussions of US law. You have no
knowledge and weren't even aware of the most basic aspect of US government:
separation of powers.

Shut the fuck up Johnston.
Bill Steele
2015-08-25 16:59:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Johnston, I've asked you numerous times not to contribute further STOOPID
to threads with sufficient STOOPID.
Could you also ask him -- and everyone else -- not to contribute to
threads that are not about TV?

We have a TV show about an ethical hacker -- "Mr. Robot." I look
forward to an episode where the villain is a Usenet troll.
Ed Stasiak
2015-08-25 16:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Charles H. Sampson
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will
allow him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat?
The 14th Amendment was about securing citizenship for Black-Americans
who had been slaves prior to the Civil War and who had been considered
non-citizens.

It was never meant to be used for "birth tourism", allowing any woman
who manages to somehow get into the U.S. by hook or crook and give
birth, to have her baby automatically declared a U.S. citizen.

Trump would have to get legislation passed overturning the Supreme Court;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark

"The case highlighted disagreements over the precise meaning of one phrase
in the Citizenship Clause--namely, the provision that a person born in the United
States who is subject to the jurisdiction thereof acquires automatic citizenship.

The Supreme Court's majority concluded that this phrase referred to being
required to obey U.S. law; on this basis, they interpreted the language of the
Fourteenth Amendment in a way that granted U.S. citizenship to at least some
children born of foreigners because they were born on American soil (a concept
known as jus soli).

The court's dissenters argued that being subject to the jurisdiction of the United
States meant not being subject to any foreign power-- that is, not being claimed
as a citizen by another country via jus sanguinis (inheriting citizenship from a
parent)--an interpretation which, in the minority's view, would have excluded
"the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through
the country".
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-25 18:10:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
Charles H. Sampson
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will
allow him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat?
The 14th Amendment was about securing citizenship for Black-Americans
who had been slaves prior to the Civil War and who had been considered
non-citizens.
It was never meant to be used for "birth tourism", allowing any woman
who manages to somehow get into the U.S. by hook or crook and give
birth, to have her baby automatically declared a U.S. citizen.
Ed, do you understand that there were no immigration restrictions at the
time, so "birth tourism" wasn't an issue? Our Founding Fathers and the
Republicans who wrote the Fourteenth Amendment never intended for there
to be immigration restriction.
Post by Ed Stasiak
Trump would have to get legislation passed overturning the Supreme Court;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark
You do understand that the Chinese Exclusion Act, the first immigration
restriction, was entirely unconstitutional, yes?
Post by Ed Stasiak
"The case highlighted disagreements over the precise meaning of one
phrase in the Citizenship Clause--namely, the provision that a person
born in the United States who is subject to the jurisdiction thereof
acquires automatic citizenship.
The Supreme Court's majority concluded that this phrase referred to being
required to obey U.S. law; on this basis, they interpreted the language
of the Fourteenth Amendment in a way that granted U.S. citizenship to
at least some children born of foreigners because they were born on
American soil (a concept known as jus soli).
The court's dissenters argued that being subject to the jurisdiction of
the United States meant not being subject to any foreign power-- that
is, not being claimed as a citizen by another country via jus sanguinis
(inheriting citizenship from a parent)--an interpretation which, in
the minority's view, would have excluded "the children of foreigners,
happening to be born to them while passing through the country".
The clause has perfectly plain language, so the dissenters were wrong.
Ed Stasiak
2015-08-26 04:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Adam H. Kerman
Ed Stasiak
It was never meant to be used for "birth tourism", allowing any woman
who manages to somehow get into the U.S. by hook or crook and give
birth, to have her baby automatically declared a U.S. citizen.
Ed, do you understand that there were no immigration restrictions at the
time, so "birth tourism" wasn't an issue?
I'll agree birth tourism wasn't a problem back then but there were in fact
immigration laws throughout the history of the U.S. right from the start;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790
Our Founding Fathers and the Republicans who wrote the Fourteenth
Amendment never intended for there to be immigration restriction.
Nonsense, as we can see above.
You do understand that the Chinese Exclusion Act, the first immigration
restriction, was entirely unconstitutional, yes?
No, there was nothing unconstitutional about the Chinese Exclusion Act,
the government can decide who can or cannot immigrate to the U.S.

U.S. v. Wong was about someone born in the U.S. to legal resident aliens
(thus a legal citizen himself) and then denied reentry after going overseas
for a time.
The court's dissenters argued that being subject to the jurisdiction of
the United States meant not being subject to any foreign power-- that
is, not being claimed as a citizen by another country via jus sanguinis
(inheriting citizenship from a parent)
The clause has perfectly plain language, so the dissenters were wrong.
I'll agree the language is perfectly plain but the dissenters were correct;
it's preposterous to suggest that simply making your way over the border
to have a baby is sufficient for that baby to automatically become an
American citizen, as if it were some kinda sporting event where if you
cross the "goal line" you win.

If the the mother/parents are illegal aliens, they remain foreign citizens
and subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign power and unless/until they
legally become resident aliens, any children born to them in the U.S. are
also foreign citizens.
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-26 05:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
Adam H. Kerman
Ed Stasiak
It was never meant to be used for "birth tourism", allowing any woman
who manages to somehow get into the U.S. by hook or crook and give
birth, to have her baby automatically declared a U.S. citizen.
Ed, do you understand that there were no immigration restrictions at the
time, so "birth tourism" wasn't an issue?
I'll agree birth tourism wasn't a problem back then but there were in fact
immigration laws throughout the history of the U.S. right from the start;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790
Fine. Asians were excluded, and the Dred Scott decision enforced some
very old US policy. There don't seem to be any other unexpected
restrictions on immigration. They could petition after two years
residence and one year's residence in a state.
Post by Ed Stasiak
Our Founding Fathers and the Republicans who wrote the Fourteenth
Amendment never intended for there to be immigration restriction.
Nonsense, as we can see above.
I'm not quite seeing what you're seeing.
Post by Ed Stasiak
You do understand that the Chinese Exclusion Act, the first immigration
restriction, was entirely unconstitutional, yes?
No, there was nothing unconstitutional about the Chinese Exclusion Act,
the government can decide who can or cannot immigrate to the U.S.
U.S. v. Wong was about someone born in the U.S. to legal resident aliens
(thus a legal citizen himself) and then denied reentry after going overseas
for a time.
If he wasn't a citizen due to the Chinese Exclusion Act, then what was
the basis for immigration authorities refusing to recognize his citizenship?
Post by Ed Stasiak
The court's dissenters argued that being subject to the jurisdiction of
the United States meant not being subject to any foreign power-- that
is, not being claimed as a citizen by another country via jus sanguinis
(inheriting citizenship from a parent)
The clause has perfectly plain language, so the dissenters were wrong.
I'll agree the language is perfectly plain but the dissenters were correct;
it's preposterous to suggest that simply making your way over the border
to have a baby is sufficient for that baby to automatically become an
American citizen, as if it were some kinda sporting event where if you
cross the "goal line" you win.
Sigh.

Did you read the Wikipedia entry on Wong? That's not what they were
talking about.
Post by Ed Stasiak
If the the mother/parents are illegal aliens, they remain foreign citizens
and subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign power and unless/until they
legally become resident aliens, any children born to them in the U.S. are
also foreign citizens.
That's not addressed in the clause in any way, shape, or form.
FPP
2015-08-26 06:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
I'll agree the language is perfectly plain but the dissenters were correct;
it's preposterous to suggest that simply making your way over the border
to have a baby is sufficient for that baby to automatically become an
American citizen, as if it were some kinda sporting event where if you
cross the "goal line" you win.
Preposterous, yes. Agreed.

Legal? Also yes... and despite what Donald Trump says, it will remain legal.

We just don't have the will to amend the Constitution any more. It
would cost too many votes.

In a climate where we can't pass a voters rights act, how could we ever
hope to pass one that alienates the largest growing demographic?
--
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former. -Einstein
Charles H. Sampson
2015-08-26 07:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
Adam H. Kerman
Ed Stasiak
It was never meant to be used for "birth tourism", allowing any woman
who manages to somehow get into the U.S. by hook or crook and give
birth, to have her baby automatically declared a U.S. citizen.
Ed, do you understand that there were no immigration restrictions at the
time, so "birth tourism" wasn't an issue?
I'll agree birth tourism wasn't a problem back then but there were in fact
immigration laws throughout the history of the U.S. right from the start;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790
Our Founding Fathers and the Republicans who wrote the Fourteenth
Amendment never intended for there to be immigration restriction.
Nonsense, as we can see above.
You do understand that the Chinese Exclusion Act, the first immigration
restriction, was entirely unconstitutional, yes?
No, there was nothing unconstitutional about the Chinese Exclusion Act,
the government can decide who can or cannot immigrate to the U.S.
U.S. v. Wong was about someone born in the U.S. to legal resident aliens
(thus a legal citizen himself) and then denied reentry after going overseas
for a time.
The court's dissenters argued that being subject to the jurisdiction of
the United States meant not being subject to any foreign power-- that
is, not being claimed as a citizen by another country via jus sanguinis
(inheriting citizenship from a parent)
The clause has perfectly plain language, so the dissenters were wrong.
I'll agree the language is perfectly plain but the dissenters were correct;
it's preposterous to suggest that simply making your way over the border
to have a baby is sufficient for that baby to automatically become an
American citizen, as if it were some kinda sporting event where if you
cross the "goal line" you win.
If the the mother/parents are illegal aliens, they remain foreign citizens
and subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign power and unless/until they
legally become resident aliens, any children born to them in the U.S. are
also foreign citizens.
I was wondering about this line of reasoning when I asked my question,
but I don't think it works. Somebody in this country illegally is
subject to the laws of this country, as well as the laws of their native
land. I think the only people in the U. S. who are not subject to its
jurisdiction are ambassadors, charge-d'affaires, consuls, etc, and their
families.

Charlie
--
Nobody in this country got rich on his own. You built a factory--good.
But you moved your goods on roads we all paid for. You hired workers we
all paid to educate. So keep a big hunk of the money from your factory.
But take a hunk and pay it forward. Elizabeth Warren (paraphrased)
Steve Bartman
2015-08-26 12:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I was wondering about this line of reasoning when I asked my question,
but I don't think it works. Somebody in this country illegally is
subject to the laws of this country, as well as the laws of their native
land. I think the only people in the U. S. who are not subject to its
jurisdiction are ambassadors, charge-d'affaires, consuls, etc, and their
families.
Charlie
The USSC has never ruled on children of illegal immigrants. Perhaps
they will.

I have read, in the last few days, some interesting estimates of the
number of babies born to "illegal immigrants." In contrast to the
contentions of many a great number, perhaps a majority, are born to
women who entered the US legally, but are not in a legal status at the
time of the birth. Visa overstayers being the largest category. And
since about half of illegal immigrants have been in the US at least
ten years this represents a problem for implementation of Trump's
proposal, even if it were constitutional. A lot of these children are
not "babies" but rather fully-Americanized children and teens.

There have been recent actions on the west coast where federal
authorities busted criminal rings engaged in "tourism births" whereby
Chinese women late in their pregnancies were flown into the US under
legal tourist visas to give birth here and then return home
immediately. In one case I read the ring leaders fled and are being
sought by the feds. Regardless of the criminal nature of this activity
these children are citizens, at least for now.

Steve
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-26 14:31:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Bartman
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I was wondering about this line of reasoning when I asked my question,
but I don't think it works. Somebody in this country illegally is
subject to the laws of this country, as well as the laws of their native
land. I think the only people in the U. S. who are not subject to its
jurisdiction are ambassadors, charge-d'affaires, consuls, etc, and their
families.
The USSC has never ruled on children of illegal immigrants. Perhaps
they will.
I have read, in the last few days, some interesting estimates of the
number of babies born to "illegal immigrants." In contrast to the
contentions of many a great number, perhaps a majority, are born to
women who entered the US legally, but are not in a legal status at the
time of the birth. Visa overstayers being the largest category. And
since about half of illegal immigrants have been in the US at least
ten years this represents a problem for implementation of Trump's
proposal, even if it were constitutional. A lot of these children are
not "babies" but rather fully-Americanized children and teens.
There have been recent actions on the west coast where federal
authorities busted criminal rings engaged in "tourism births" whereby
Chinese women late in their pregnancies were flown into the US under
legal tourist visas to give birth here and then return home
immediately. In one case I read the ring leaders fled and are being
sought by the feds. Regardless of the criminal nature of this activity
these children are citizens, at least for now.
Your position doesn't make any sense. You just told us that those
mothers DIDN'T attempt to immigrate as they returned home, so there's
no issue that the mother was in the country illegally.
Charles H. Sampson
2015-08-26 07:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
Charles H. Sampson
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will
allow him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat?
The 14th Amendment was about securing citizenship for Black-Americans
who had been slaves prior to the Civil War and who had been considered
non-citizens.
It was never meant to be used for "birth tourism", allowing any woman
who manages to somehow get into the U.S. by hook or crook and give
birth, to have her baby automatically declared a U.S. citizen.
Trump would have to get legislation passed overturning the Supreme Court;
Legislation can't overrule the Supreme Court. (It can sometimes achieve
a desired result by working around a Supreme Court decision.) Anyhow,
isn't Trump claiming that he can do it all by himself?
Post by Ed Stasiak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark
"The case highlighted disagreements over the precise meaning of one phrase
in the Citizenship Clause--namely, the provision that a person born in the
United States who is subject to the jurisdiction thereof acquires
automatic citizenship.
The Supreme Court's majority concluded that this phrase referred to being
required to obey U.S. law; on this basis, they interpreted the language of
the Fourteenth Amendment in a way that granted U.S. citizenship to at
least some children born of foreigners because they were born on American
soil (a concept known as jus soli).
The court's dissenters argued that being subject to the jurisdiction of
the United States meant not being subject to any foreign power-- that is,
not being claimed as a citizen by another country via jus sanguinis
(inheriting citizenship from a parent)--an interpretation which, in the
minority's view, would have excluded "the children of foreigners,
happening to be born to them while passing through the country".
That summary sounds like the majority in the case held to the obvious
meaning of the words of the amendment and the dissenters held what a lot
of people, such as Harry Reid, want. The dissenters lost. At the moment,
the majority's reading is the law of the land.

The Supreme Court does from time to time overrule a previous decision,
but it's pretty rare.

Charlie
--
Nobody in this country got rich on his own. You built a factory--good.
But you moved your goods on roads we all paid for. You hired workers we
all paid to educate. So keep a big hunk of the money from your factory.
But take a hunk and pay it forward. Elizabeth Warren (paraphrased)
Steve Bartman
2015-08-25 22:08:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
Charlie
He has just hand-waved that he knows some lawyer friends . . .

I have read there are some conservatives who have theories about the
14th that don't gibe with Supreme Court cases. I haven't looked up the
theories. I suspect they are based on the extension, not contraction,
of the citizenship provisions of the 14th by federal statute in the
1920s to include Native Americans born on reservations. There is also
apparently a case from the late 1890s that is still precedent, but I
have not taken the time to look it up or even determine the cite. It
might have formally overturned Dred Scott, or might have done
something else. Don't know.

But I have yet to hear any argument which successfully makes the case
that the 14th doesn't mean what the plain wording of that sentence
says.

Steve
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-25 22:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Bartman
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
He has just hand-waved that he knows some lawyer friends . . .
I have read there are some conservatives who have theories about the
14th that don't gibe with Supreme Court cases. I haven't looked up the
theories. I suspect they are based on the extension, not contraction,
of the citizenship provisions of the 14th by federal statute in the
1920s to include Native Americans born on reservations. There is also
apparently a case from the late 1890s that is still precedent, but I
have not taken the time to look it up or even determine the cite. It
might have formally overturned Dred Scott, or might have done
something else. Don't know.
Jesus. Are you an actual lawyer? If you'd read all the way to the end of
the thread in articles posted long before you posted, the case was
cited. It made the Chinese Exclusion Act unconstitutional and had
NOTHING to do with overturning Dred Scott, already overturned by
the Fourteenth Amendment itself. You do know that Dred Scott was
before the Civil War, yes, and the Fourteenth Amendment was after?
Post by Steve Bartman
But I have yet to hear any argument which successfully makes the case
that the 14th doesn't mean what the plain wording of that sentence
says.
How nice for you as you just told us in the previous paragraph that you
haven't looked up the theories.

Charles Sampson certainly attracted all the trolls to this thread.
Brilliant discussion!
BTR1701
2015-08-25 22:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Bartman
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
Charlie
He has just hand-waved that he knows some lawyer friends . . .
I have read there are some conservatives who have theories about the
14th that don't gibe with Supreme Court cases. I haven't looked up the
theories. I suspect they are based on the extension, not contraction,
of the citizenship provisions of the 14th by federal statute in the
1920s to include Native Americans born on reservations. There is also
apparently a case from the late 1890s that is still precedent, but I
have not taken the time to look it up or even determine the cite. It
might have formally overturned Dred Scott, or might have done
something else. Don't know.
But I have yet to hear any argument which successfully makes the case
that the 14th doesn't mean what the plain wording of that sentence
says.
Oh, so *now* we're going with the plain wording of the Constitution, are
we? That'll surely sound the death knell for a whole host of liberal sacred
cows.

Or is this one of those, "The plain wording is only adhered to when it
suits our agenda" deals?
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-25 22:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Steve Bartman
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
He has just hand-waved that he knows some lawyer friends . . .
I have read there are some conservatives who have theories about the
14th that don't gibe with Supreme Court cases. I haven't looked up the
theories. I suspect they are based on the extension, not contraction,
of the citizenship provisions of the 14th by federal statute in the
1920s to include Native Americans born on reservations. There is also
apparently a case from the late 1890s that is still precedent, but I
have not taken the time to look it up or even determine the cite. It
might have formally overturned Dred Scott, or might have done
something else. Don't know.
But I have yet to hear any argument which successfully makes the case
that the 14th doesn't mean what the plain wording of that sentence
says.
Oh, so *now* we're going with the plain wording of the Constitution, are
we? That'll surely sound the death knell for a whole host of liberal sacred
cows.
Or is this one of those, "The plain wording is only adhered to when it
suits our agenda" deals?
You're going to have to explain your objection to the US Supreme Court
majority in Wong, 'cuz I sure as hell think that's a reasonable interpretation
of the plain language of the Fourteenth Amendment. We really don't have a
lot of appelate decisions like that, and you've criticized plenty of the
other judicially active constitutional decisions.

I just don't see the judicial activism in Wong.
BTR1701
2015-08-26 03:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by Steve Bartman
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
He has just hand-waved that he knows some lawyer friends . . .
I have read there are some conservatives who have theories about the
14th that don't gibe with Supreme Court cases. I haven't looked up the
theories. I suspect they are based on the extension, not contraction,
of the citizenship provisions of the 14th by federal statute in the
1920s to include Native Americans born on reservations. There is also
apparently a case from the late 1890s that is still precedent, but I
have not taken the time to look it up or even determine the cite. It
might have formally overturned Dred Scott, or might have done
something else. Don't know.
But I have yet to hear any argument which successfully makes the case
that the 14th doesn't mean what the plain wording of that sentence
says.
Oh, so *now* we're going with the plain wording of the Constitution, are
we? That'll surely sound the death knell for a whole host of liberal sacred
cows.
Or is this one of those, "The plain wording is only adhered to when it
suits our agenda" deals?
You're going to have to explain your objection to the US Supreme Court
majority in Wong, 'cuz I sure as hell think that's a reasonable interpretation
of the plain language of the Fourteenth Amendment. We really don't have a
lot of appelate decisions like that, and you've criticized plenty of the
other judicially active constitutional decisions.
I just don't see the judicial activism in Wong.
I wasn't criticizing Wong. I was addressing Steve's comment that the
plain wording of the amendment is what should control.
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-26 03:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by Steve Bartman
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
He has just hand-waved that he knows some lawyer friends . . .
I have read there are some conservatives who have theories about the
14th that don't gibe with Supreme Court cases. I haven't looked up the
theories. I suspect they are based on the extension, not contraction,
of the citizenship provisions of the 14th by federal statute in the
1920s to include Native Americans born on reservations. There is also
apparently a case from the late 1890s that is still precedent, but I
have not taken the time to look it up or even determine the cite. It
might have formally overturned Dred Scott, or might have done
something else. Don't know.
But I have yet to hear any argument which successfully makes the case
that the 14th doesn't mean what the plain wording of that sentence
says.
Oh, so *now* we're going with the plain wording of the Constitution, are
we? That'll surely sound the death knell for a whole host of liberal sacred
cows.
Or is this one of those, "The plain wording is only adhered to when it
suits our agenda" deals?
You're going to have to explain your objection to the US Supreme Court
majority in Wong, 'cuz I sure as hell think that's a reasonable interpretation
of the plain language of the Fourteenth Amendment. We really don't have a
lot of appelate decisions like that, and you've criticized plenty of the
other judicially active constitutional decisions.
I just don't see the judicial activism in Wong.
I wasn't criticizing Wong. I was addressing Steve's comment that the
plain wording of the amendment is what should control.
I know what you wrote. I'm saying the majority in Wong offered a plain
language interpretation of the amendment. Nevertheless, you're siding
with the Wong minority, which managed to read something into the amendment
that's simply not there.

Do you want to re-think your position?
BTR1701
2015-08-26 04:51:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by Steve Bartman
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
He has just hand-waved that he knows some lawyer friends . . .
I have read there are some conservatives who have theories about the
14th that don't gibe with Supreme Court cases. I haven't looked up the
theories. I suspect they are based on the extension, not contraction,
of the citizenship provisions of the 14th by federal statute in the
1920s to include Native Americans born on reservations. There is also
apparently a case from the late 1890s that is still precedent, but I
have not taken the time to look it up or even determine the cite. It
might have formally overturned Dred Scott, or might have done
something else. Don't know.
But I have yet to hear any argument which successfully makes the case
that the 14th doesn't mean what the plain wording of that sentence
says.
Oh, so *now* we're going with the plain wording of the Constitution, are
we? That'll surely sound the death knell for a whole host of liberal sacred
cows.
Or is this one of those, "The plain wording is only adhered to when it
suits our agenda" deals?
You're going to have to explain your objection to the US Supreme Court
majority in Wong, 'cuz I sure as hell think that's a reasonable interpretation
of the plain language of the Fourteenth Amendment. We really don't have a
lot of appelate decisions like that, and you've criticized plenty of the
other judicially active constitutional decisions.
I just don't see the judicial activism in Wong.
I wasn't criticizing Wong. I was addressing Steve's comment that the
plain wording of the amendment is what should control.
I know what you wrote. I'm saying the majority in Wong offered a plain
language interpretation of the amendment. Nevertheless, you're siding
with the Wong minority, which managed to read something into the amendment
that's simply not there.
Do you want to re-think your position?
My comment did not side with either side in that case. It wasn't even
about the case. My comment was about highlighting the hypocrisy of
someone on the Left side of the spectrum suddenly becoming a strict
constructionist when it suits the agenda.
FPP
2015-08-25 23:15:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Or is this one of those, "The plain wording is only adhered to when it
suits our agenda" deals
Please... quote me where that was said.

Something in my newsreader must have clipped it...
Ubiquitous
2015-08-26 16:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles H. Sampson
I thought about posting this to misc.legal.moderated, but I decided that
it's much more of a TV question than a legal question.
Does anyone know how Trump is reading the 14th amendment that will allow
him to get rid of anchor babies by some sort of fiat? The words "All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside." don't seem to leave a lot of room for
interpretations.
By: Daniel Horowitz

The American people are being told by the political class that there is nothing
they can do to prevent future waves of illegal immigrants from coming here,
unilaterally declaring political and legal jurisdiction, and securing citizenship
for their children. We are told that there is no recourse through our elected
representatives to prevent illegal immigrants from gaining a legal foothold in this
country all because of a footnote from the most radical anti-originalist
justice of this century, William Brennan Jr.


Justice William Brennan Jr
If you are scratching your head wondering how our own Constitution can be used as
a suicide pact against us by foreign countries, you are not missing anything.
This irrational sentiment expressed by a number of conservative and liberal
pundits alike, in fact, undermines the very fabric of the social contract,
popular sovereignty, and the republican form of government established by the
preamble of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

Mandated Birthright Citizenship Even for Legal Immigrants is a Big Stretch

Let’s put aside everything we believe as conservatives for a moment and take the
activist ruling of Wong Kim Ark [169 U.S. 649 (1898)] as impregnable
constitutional law. As such, the 14th Amendment would compel Congress and the
Executive agencies to grant citizenship to all children of legal immigrants.
Although we all agree as a matter of policy that it is a good idea to grant
children born to legal permanent residents citizenship, by accepting the 1898
court decision as settled law, thereby enshrining birthright citizenship into our
Constitution, we’d have to swallow the following ridiculous notions:

• We’d be adopting one-directional stare decisis of an activist court that
overturned two previous court decisions: the 1873 Slaughterhouse Cases and Elk v.
Wilkins (1884). In those cases, the Supreme Court made it clear that the
original intent of the 14th Amendment was primarily to grant equal rights to
freed black slaves and that the phrase “subject to the jurisdiction thereof”
required that the petitioner for citizenship be “completely subject to their
political jurisdiction, and owing them direct and immediate allegiance.” These
cases excluded children born to foreign diplomats and Native American Indians and
were quite clear that the meaning of the 14th Amendment would not include all
children of immigrants – most of whom would have been covered by less political
jurisdiction than even those born on Indian reservations, which were partially
under U.S. jurisdiction. [See more from Prof. John Eastman at NRO on defining
jurisdiction]

• We’d be overturning the most logical meaning of the text of the Citizenship
Clause, rendering the second phrase all but superfluous.

• We’d be ignoring the intent of the drafters of this amendment who clearly had
no intention to mandate birthright citizenship for all immigrants [see more in
the Eastman article]. While originalists like to focus on text, in this case the
text fits in exactly with the intent of the drafters, as demonstrated by the
Senate floor debate.

• We’d be adopting the revolutionary-era feudal system of English Common law
rooted in the fact that men are subjects of the state by virtue of being born on
the soil. This is antithetical to the consent-based notion of citizenship
expressed by our Founders. Although many of our laws are built upon common law,
this certainly was not one of them, and this segregation-era court was
incorporating it into American law, ironically, at a time when England was
abandoning feudalism. As Thomas Jefferson wrote precisely in a discussion on
immigration in Notes on the State of Virginia [Query 8, 211], our Constitution is
a composition of the “freest principles of the English constitution.”

• By adopting jus soli as a constitutional mandate (not just policy) for
automatic citizenship based on soil, and not jus sanguinis – right of blood – all
children born to American citizens abroad would not automatically be citizens, as
noted by then-Chief Justice Fuller in his dissent in Wong Kim Ark.

• Fuller further noted in his masterful dissent that by mandating automatic
citizenship for all children of immigrants – no matter the circumstances – the
Fourteenth Amendment would have the power “to cut off the legislative power from
dealing with the subject.” Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution grants
Congress plenary power over naturalizations. Fuller observes that, “the right of
a nation to expel or deport foreigners who have not been naturalized or taken any
steps toward becoming citizens of a country is as absolute and unqualified as the
right to prohibit and prevent their entrance into the country.” Unless there
would be no other way to read the plain language of the 14th Amendment other than
a mandate granting territorial jurisdiction instead of political jurisdiction
(before 1898 nobody read it this way), it is simply imprudent to interpret it in
the most stringent way – having the effect of almost completely voiding out an
enumerated power of the people’s representatives governing the most vital aspect
of a society.

Extrapolating Birthright to Illegals Countermands the Social Contract and all
Semblance of Sovereignty

Freeze frame at this point.

Accepting the notion of automatic birthright citizenship for legal immigrants as
a constitutional mandate is hard enough to swallow. Yet, the conservative
pundits in the political class want to extrapolate this terrible decision to
children of illegal immigrants. As if it wasn’t enough to accept the activist
1898 court case from the segregationist justices, proponents of anchor
citizenship for illegal immigrants rely on footnote 10 in William Brennan’s
Plylor v. Doe (1982) opinion – a decision that absurdly forced taxpayers to fund
K-12 education for illegal immigrants.

In that footnote, which is nothing more than dicta (non-binding comments not
relevant to the case), Brennan quotes “one early commentator” noting that “given
the historical emphasis on geographic territoriality, bounded only, if at all, by
principles of sovereignty and allegiance, no plausible distinction with respect
to Fourteenth Amendment ‘jurisdiction’ can be drawn between resident aliens whose
entry into the United States was lawful, and resident aliens whose entry was
unlawful.”

There you have it, until the end of time, American citizens – through their
elected representatives – have no recourse to prevent future illegal immigrants
from obtaining citizenship against the will of the people – because of the non-
binding footnote of the most radical justice of the 20th century, which in
itself, relied on a decision reversing precedent and relying on the English
feudal system.

In reality, there is a huge difference between the legal permanent resident who
was the subject of the 1898 court case and the illegal immigrants of today, even
if we were to fully accept the concept of birthright citizenship based on nothing
more than geographical jurisdiction. The justices in Wong awarded the child
citizenship because his Chinese immigrant parents were “domiciled” in America
(legally, before the ban on Chinese immigration). As Prof. Eastman notes,
“Domicile” is a legal term of art; it means “a person’s legal home,” according to
Black’s law dictionary, and is often used synonymously with “citizenship.”
Undoubtedly, those here in contravention to our laws, unlike Wong Kim Ark’s
parents, cannot unilaterally declare domicile in our country.

And this all leads to a much more fundamental and vital discussion about
sovereignty. There is simply no way our Constitution can prohibit our elected
representatives from preventing illegal immigrants from driving their pregnant
wives to the border, and assuming the border patrol fails to catch the speeding
vehicle in time – poof! – that baby is a citizen.

First, as noted before, Article 1 Section 8 grants Congress plenary power over
naturalization. By mandating automatic citizenship to babies born in the
aforementioned case, that would completely strip the ability of Congress to
exercise the most basic regulation over naturalization – keeping out those they
affirmatively do not want in the country. Certainly, we can say that Section 5
of the 14th Amendment, which grants Congress the power to enforce the other
sections of the amendment, would allow them to clarify the Citizenship Clause to
the extent that it would not completely countermand their Article 1 power as it
relates to illegal aliens who force their will on their constituents – for
goodness sakes!

But more fundamentally, the notion that illegal immigrants can unilaterally
declare citizenship for their kids against the will of people and the laws duly
passed by the people’s representatives, and that those representatives would lack
a single recourse to stop it even prospectively, violates the very essence of
consent-based citizenship. The notion of consent-based citizenship serves as the
bedrock of popular sovereignty, territorial sovereignty, and Republicanism – all
built on the social contract. The preamble of the Declaration of Independence
was built upon the principle that in order to protect natural rights people are
entitled to popular sovereignty – to form a government that derives its powers
“from the consent of the governed.”

Professor Edward Erler has been the leading voice observing how birthright
citizenship for illegal immigrants, and indeed the entire phenomenon of illegal
immigration and their securing of rights and benefits, violates the social
contract in the most foundational way. In his book, The Founders on Citizenship
and Immigration, Erler writes the following with regards to citizenship and the
social contract:

[T]he social contract requires reciprocal consent. Not
only must the individual consent to be governed, but he
must also be accepted by the community as a whole. If
all persons born within the geographical limits of the
United States are to be counted citizens-even those whose
parents are in the United States illegally- then this
would be tantamount to the conferral of citizenship
without the consent of "the whole people."

Drawing on the writings of our Founders, Erler notes that they clearly envisioned
that “new members can be added only with the consent of those who already
constitute civil society.” He cites Madison who wrote that, “in the case of
naturalization a new member is added to the social compact, not only without a
unanimous consent of the members, but by a majority of the governing body,
deriving its powers from a majority of the individual parties to the social
compact.”[1]

Even Wong Kim Ark Court Would Never Mandate Citizenship for Illegal Aliens

Clearly, even the authors of the Wong decision, unlike William Brennan,
understood the basic concept of consent-based citizenship, at least as it relates
to those who came here illegally. While some intellectuals contend that because
there was no real concept of illegal immigration in those days the decision would
apply to all aliens, the writings of that very court prove otherwise.



In fact, by that point, pursuant to the immigration laws passed in 1882 and 1891,
Congress had already denied admission to the following categories of aliens:
“idiots,” the insane, paupers, and polygamists; persons liable to become a public
charge; those convicted of a felony or other crime or misdemeanor involving moral
depravity; and sufferers “from a loathsome or dangerous” contagious disease.
They also passed the Chinese Exclusion Act banning all new immigration from
China. The Immigration Act of 1891 created a new office, the Commissioner of
Immigration within the Treasury Department, vested with the power to inspect new
immigrants and potentially deny them entry if they were deemed inadmissible under
one of the criteria.

In Nishimura Ekiu v. United States (1892), a Japanese woman sued immigration
officials for denying her entry on account of her being a supposed public charge.
She claimed that her due process was violated because she was not afforded the
opportunity to present her case. And no, she was not even asserting the dubious
modern substantive due process violation in pursuit of new fundamental rights;
she was merely alleging a procedural due process violation. Yet, Justice Gray –
the same author of the Wong decision – not only rejected her claim, he noted that
the courts shouldn’t even have the jurisdiction to second guess legislative and
executive decisions on immigration. Here are the relevant quotes with my emphasis
added:

“It is an accepted maxim of international law that every
sovereign nation has the power, as inherent in
sovereignty, and essential to self-preservation, to
forbid the entrance of foreigners within its dominions,
or to admit them only in such cases and upon such
conditions as it may see fit to prescribe. Vat. Law Nat.
lib. 2, §§ 94, 100; 1 Phillim. Int. Law, (3d Ed.) c. 10,
§ 220. In the United States this power is vested in the
national government, to which the constitution has
committed the entire control of international relations,
in peace as well as in war. It belongs to the political
department of the government, and may be exercised either
through treaties made by the president and senate, or
through statutes enacted by congress, upon whom the
constitution has conferred power to regulate commerce
with foreign nations, including the entrance of ships,
the importation of goods, and the bringing of persons
into the ports of the United States; to establish a
uniform rule of naturalization; to declare war, and to
provide and maintain armies and navies; and to make all
laws which may be necessary and proper for carrying into
effect these powers and all other powers vested by the
constitution in the government of the United States, or
in any department or officer thereof. […]

“It is not within the province of the judiciary to order
that foreigners who have never been naturalized, nor
acquired any domicile or residence within the United
States, nor even been admitted into the country pursuant
to law, shall be permitted to enter, in opposition to
the constitutional and lawful measures of the legislative
and executive branches of the national government. As to
such persons, the decisions of executive or
administrative officers, acting within powers expressly
conferred by congress, are due process of law.

Here we have the very activist author of the decision used as the foundation for
the birthright argument clearly expressing the basic concept that Congress has
the ability to control the nation’s sovereignty. It would require preposterous
mental gymnastics to assume that, had this Japanese woman given birth at the port
the day she was interviewed by the immigration officer, Justice Gray would have
conferred citizenship on that baby – against the will of the people’s
representatives.


Where is the Voice of the people on immigration?

The reason the birthright discussion is so important is because it sheds so much
light on the transmogrification of the judicial system as it relates to popular
sovereignty and the social contract. Not only do we have judges like Brennan
bestowing citizenship and education rights on illegal immigrants from the high
perches of the bench, they have invalidated almost every attempt by the states
and federal government to keep out illegal immigrants. A California judge
recently invalidated detention for all illegal immigrants with children,
essentially mandating their irrevocable disappearance into the American
population.

In addition to the courts, we have unelected bureaucrats and the U.N.
transforming entire communities through refugee resettlements without the consent
of the people. And although our current immigration system was formed by the
Hart-Cellar Act (“Kennedy bill”) in 1965, the supporters of the bill lied to the
American people and publicly ruled out the transformational outcome that indeed
took place. For decades, illegal aliens have been counted in the census and have
now permanently distorted the very representation the civil society needs to
fight on behalf of their sovereignty.

What ever happened to the voice of the people?

Immigration transformation pursued outside of the democratic process is even
worse than having courts decide societal issues, such as abortion and gay
marriage, in what Justice Scalia calls “societal transformation without
representation.” The courts have now empowered themselves to unilaterally and
immutably change civil society itself – without any recourse from those the
Constitution vested with making such decisions. How far we have deviated from
the Founders’ vision that even so-called conservatives support the idea of
changing the civil society without the consent of its citizens.

Indeed, the issue of birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants is not just a
tangential topic within immigration. It cuts to the very core of how illegal
immigrants are able to coerce their will on the American citizenry and the
broader issue of sovereignty. This runs much deeper than the 14th Amendment.
The question for policy-makers has moved beyond whether we will survive as a
nation as our Founder’s envisioned. We have already deviated so far from that
vision. It’s a question of whether we are a nation at all.

: Daniel Horowitz is the Senior Editor of Conservative Review. Follow : him on
Twitter @RMConservative.
--
"I will not vote for Hillary Clinton. The last Clinton presidency left
a bad taste in my mouth."
-- Monica Lewinsky
Adam H. Kerman
2015-08-26 17:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ubiquitous
By: Daniel Horowitz
Ok, ubi. I started reading that, but he called Wong "activism", so fuck him.
It's really really not.
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