Discussion:
[OT] HOA Demands Homeowners Keep Garage Doors Open During Day
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BTR1701
2018-01-09 02:01:16 UTC
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Raw Message
AUBURN, CA -- An Auburn community is upset after their homeowners
association told them they were required to keep their garage doors open
during the day.

The rule calls for residents with garages to keep them open from 8 a.m. to
4 p.m. Monday through Friday. While some have been abiding by the new rule,
despite being against it, others were keeping their doors shut.

Nine-year-old Jason, whose family lives at Auburn Greens, was concerned.

"I'm still worried a little. I'm still a little worried because I just
think it's all going to get stolen, you know?" Jason said.

A sheet of paper was the cause for concern, a list left earlier in the week
by the Auburn Greens Unit 1 Homeowners Association.

"I don't think it's a good idea because they are going to steal my bike,"
Jason said. "I've got an electric scooter, I've got an electric wheelchair,
I’ve got all kinds of stuff. So, I just don't think it's very good to have
it open."

For every home like Jason's that began following the new rule, there were
plenty of others who refused to, like Shally Ia.

"I have nothing to hide. I understand somebody had people living in the
garage. I don't. I am following the rules," Ia said. "All I am asking is a
reasonable way to get around this. If you want to do a monthly, bi-monthly
inspection of my garage, I have nothing to hide. If I have something that's
being stored in there and you don't like it I'll remove it."

Residents say a $200 fine and an administrative hearing are the potential
punishment for keeping the door down, but for some paying the fine it may
be worth avoiding a burglary.

"Fine, let me give you the $200 fine right now," Ia said. "Give me a month
so I can get my stuff out, and I might as well clear everything out and
leave the garage door open permanently because there is no point of having
a garage door then."

A call to the HOA was not returned and the office was closed during the
hours it had posted as opened. As some residents seemed to be testing how
open the garage needs to be, regardless of the choice to keep the door up
or down, many residents shared a common disdain for the rule.

"I hope it does change. I hope it does," Jason said.

The HOA monthly meeting is scheduled to take place in two weeks, and many
residents say they plan to be there.

http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them-to-leave-garage-doors-open/
anim8rfsk
2018-01-09 02:16:13 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
AUBURN, CA -- An Auburn community is upset after their homeowners
association told them they were required to keep their garage doors open
during the day.
The rule calls for residents with garages to keep them open from 8 a.m. to
4 p.m. Monday through Friday. While some have been abiding by the new rule,
despite being against it, others were keeping their doors shut.
Nine-year-old Jason, whose family lives at Auburn Greens, was concerned.
"I'm still worried a little. I'm still a little worried because I just
think it's all going to get stolen, you know?" Jason said.
A sheet of paper was the cause for concern, a list left earlier in the week
by the Auburn Greens Unit 1 Homeowners Association.
"I don't think it's a good idea because they are going to steal my bike,"
Jason said. "I've got an electric scooter, I've got an electric wheelchair,
I’ve got all kinds of stuff. So, I just don't think it's very good to have
it open."
For every home like Jason's that began following the new rule, there were
plenty of others who refused to, like Shally Ia.
"I have nothing to hide. I understand somebody had people living in the
garage. I don't. I am following the rules," Ia said. "All I am asking is a
reasonable way to get around this. If you want to do a monthly, bi-monthly
inspection of my garage, I have nothing to hide. If I have something that's
being stored in there and you don't like it I'll remove it."
Residents say a $200 fine and an administrative hearing are the potential
punishment for keeping the door down, but for some paying the fine it may
be worth avoiding a burglary.
"Fine, let me give you the $200 fine right now," Ia said. "Give me a month
so I can get my stuff out, and I might as well clear everything out and
leave the garage door open permanently because there is no point of having
a garage door then."
A call to the HOA was not returned and the office was closed during the
hours it had posted as opened. As some residents seemed to be testing how
open the garage needs to be, regardless of the choice to keep the door up
or down, many residents shared a common disdain for the rule.
"I hope it does change. I hope it does," Jason said.
The HOA monthly meeting is scheduled to take place in two weeks, and many
residents say they plan to be there.
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them-to-lea
ve-garage-doors-open/
I just got a new garage door with windows in it. Would that be good
enough?

How about those chain mail store fronts like they have in New York?
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
BTR1701
2018-01-09 02:58:42 UTC
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Post by BTR1701
AUBURN, CA -- An Auburn community is upset after their homeowners
association told them they were required to keep their garage doors open
during the day.
The rule calls for residents with garages to keep them open from 8 a.m. to
4 p.m. Monday through Friday. While some have been abiding by the new rule,
despite being against it, others were keeping their doors shut.
Nine-year-old Jason, whose family lives at Auburn Greens, was concerned.
"I'm still worried a little. I'm still a little worried because I just
think it's all going to get stolen, you know?" Jason said.
A sheet of paper was the cause for concern, a list left earlier in the week
by the Auburn Greens Unit 1 Homeowners Association.
"I don't think it's a good idea because they are going to steal my bike,"
Jason said. "I've got an electric scooter, I've got an electric wheelchair,
Ia??ve got all kinds of stuff. So, I just don't think it's very good to
have
it open."
For every home like Jason's that began following the new rule, there were
plenty of others who refused to, like Shally Ia.
"I have nothing to hide. I understand somebody had people living in the
garage. I don't. I am following the rules," Ia said. "All I am asking is a
reasonable way to get around this. If you want to do a monthly, bi-monthly
inspection of my garage, I have nothing to hide. If I have something that's
being stored in there and you don't like it I'll remove it."
Residents say a $200 fine and an administrative hearing are the potential
punishment for keeping the door down, but for some paying the fine it may
be worth avoiding a burglary.
"Fine, let me give you the $200 fine right now," Ia said. "Give me a month
so I can get my stuff out, and I might as well clear everything out and
leave the garage door open permanently because there is no point of having
a garage door then."
A call to the HOA was not returned and the office was closed during the
hours it had posted as opened. As some residents seemed to be testing how
open the garage needs to be, regardless of the choice to keep the door up
or down, many residents shared a common disdain for the rule.
"I hope it does change. I hope it does," Jason said.
The HOA monthly meeting is scheduled to take place in two weeks, and many
residents say they plan to be there.
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them-to-l
eave-garage-doors-open/
I just got a new garage door with windows in it. Would that be good
enough?
How about those chain mail store fronts like they have in New York?
HOAs are evil incarnate. I'm going to ban them completely when I become
Benevolent Dictator of America.

It's unbelievable that they think they have the right to force people to
either pay $200 every month or leave all their belongings exposed to the
elements and thieves. Many garages connect to the home as well, not all
of which have very secure doors, so not only are you leaving the
valuable stuff in the garage exposed, but the rest of your house as well.

Sounds like pretty much no one likes the assholes that imposed the rule,
so they should just all band together and kick the lot of them off the
board and put new people in.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-01-09 05:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
AUBURN, CA -- An Auburn community is upset after their homeowners
association told them they were required to keep their garage doors open
during the day.
The rule calls for residents with garages to keep them open from 8 a.m. to
4 p.m. Monday through Friday. While some have been abiding by the new rule,
despite being against it, others were keeping their doors shut.
Nine-year-old Jason, whose family lives at Auburn Greens, was concerned.
"I'm still worried a little. I'm still a little worried because I just
think it's all going to get stolen, you know?" Jason said.
A sheet of paper was the cause for concern, a list left earlier in the week
by the Auburn Greens Unit 1 Homeowners Association.
"I don't think it's a good idea because they are going to steal my bike,"
Jason said. "I've got an electric scooter, I've got an electric wheelchair,
Ia??ve got all kinds of stuff. So, I just don't think it's very good to
have
it open."
For every home like Jason's that began following the new rule, there were
plenty of others who refused to, like Shally Ia.
"I have nothing to hide. I understand somebody had people living in the
garage. I don't. I am following the rules," Ia said. "All I am asking is a
reasonable way to get around this. If you want to do a monthly, bi-monthly
inspection of my garage, I have nothing to hide. If I have something that's
being stored in there and you don't like it I'll remove it."
Residents say a $200 fine and an administrative hearing are the potential
punishment for keeping the door down, but for some paying the fine it may
be worth avoiding a burglary.
"Fine, let me give you the $200 fine right now," Ia said. "Give me a month
so I can get my stuff out, and I might as well clear everything out and
leave the garage door open permanently because there is no point of having
a garage door then."
A call to the HOA was not returned and the office was closed during the
hours it had posted as opened. As some residents seemed to be testing how
open the garage needs to be, regardless of the choice to keep the door up
or down, many residents shared a common disdain for the rule.
"I hope it does change. I hope it does," Jason said.
The HOA monthly meeting is scheduled to take place in two weeks, and many
residents say they plan to be there.
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them-to-l
eave-garage-doors-open/
I just got a new garage door with windows in it. Would that be good
enough?
How about those chain mail store fronts like they have in New York?
HOAs are evil incarnate. I'm going to ban them completely when I become
Benevolent Dictator of America.
It's unbelievable that they think they have the right to force people to
either pay $200 every month or leave all their belongings exposed to the
elements and thieves. Many garages connect to the home as well, not all
of which have very secure doors, so not only are you leaving the
valuable stuff in the garage exposed, but the rest of your house as well.
Sounds like pretty much no one likes the assholes that imposed the rule,
so they should just all band together and kick the lot of them off the
board and put new people in.
Yeah, but that means serving on the board, which is real work. That's
how the assholes always take over.
Neill Massello
2018-01-09 22:20:03 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Yeah, but that means serving on the board, which is real work. That's
how the assholes always take over.
Bingo. Assholes are attracted to positions that allow them to boss other
people around.
Obveeus
2018-01-10 00:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Neill Massello
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Yeah, but that means serving on the board, which is real work. That's
how the assholes always take over.
Bingo. Assholes are attracted to positions that allow them to boss other
people around.
I thought you two were agreeing that only assholes were willing to do
real work.
Neill Massello
2018-01-10 01:21:30 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
Post by Neill Massello
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Yeah, but that means serving on the board, which is real work. That's
how the assholes always take over.
Bingo. Assholes are attracted to positions that allow them to boss other
people around.
I thought you two were agreeing that only assholes were willing to do
real work.
No, there are industrious assholes and industrious non-assholes, but the
non-assholes prefer to do productive work rather than just boss people
around.
Rhino
2018-01-10 13:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Neill Massello
Post by Obveeus
Post by Neill Massello
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Yeah, but that means serving on the board, which is real work. That's
how the assholes always take over.
Bingo. Assholes are attracted to positions that allow them to boss other
people around.
I thought you two were agreeing that only assholes were willing to do
real work.
No, there are industrious assholes and industrious non-assholes, but the
non-assholes prefer to do productive work rather than just boss people
around.
We used to have a saying in the co-op when I lived there in my student
days: "It's easier to have a title than to do work." This was because of
the perception that people with titles that included the word "Manager",
like "Linen Manager" or "Maintenance Manager" didn't do *real* work, as
compared to people whose job was dishwasher or floor mopper. The saying
wasn't actually true in most cases - management jobs could easily be
considerably more work than dishwashers or floor moppers thought - but
it was widely said if not believed.
--
Rhino
Ed Stasiak
2018-01-10 00:59:37 UTC
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Raw Message
Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
BTR1701
Sounds like pretty much no one likes the assholes that imposed the rule,
so they should just all band together and kick the lot of them off the
board and put new people in.
Yeah, but that means serving on the board, which is real work. That's
how the assholes always take over.
I would think that with this stupid open garage door policy, there
would be more than enough residents to get like-minded people
elected to the HOA board, whereupon they change the rules to
prevent power mad juntas like this from ever taking over?

“All existing rules are null and void, except this, that and the other
thing and can never be changed without a 9/10ths majority vote of
all the residents.”
trotsky
2018-01-09 11:14:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
AUBURN, CA -- An Auburn community is upset after their homeowners
association told them they were required to keep their garage doors open
during the day.
The rule calls for residents with garages to keep them open from 8 a.m. to
4 p.m. Monday through Friday. While some have been abiding by the new rule,
despite being against it, others were keeping their doors shut.
Nine-year-old Jason, whose family lives at Auburn Greens, was concerned.
"I'm still worried a little. I'm still a little worried because I just
think it's all going to get stolen, you know?" Jason said.
A sheet of paper was the cause for concern, a list left earlier in the week
by the Auburn Greens Unit 1 Homeowners Association.
"I don't think it's a good idea because they are going to steal my bike,"
Jason said. "I've got an electric scooter, I've got an electric wheelchair,
Ia??ve got all kinds of stuff. So, I just don't think it's very good to
have
it open."
For every home like Jason's that began following the new rule, there were
plenty of others who refused to, like Shally Ia.
"I have nothing to hide. I understand somebody had people living in the
garage. I don't. I am following the rules," Ia said. "All I am asking is a
reasonable way to get around this. If you want to do a monthly, bi-monthly
inspection of my garage, I have nothing to hide. If I have something that's
being stored in there and you don't like it I'll remove it."
Residents say a $200 fine and an administrative hearing are the potential
punishment for keeping the door down, but for some paying the fine it may
be worth avoiding a burglary.
"Fine, let me give you the $200 fine right now," Ia said. "Give me a month
so I can get my stuff out, and I might as well clear everything out and
leave the garage door open permanently because there is no point of having
a garage door then."
A call to the HOA was not returned and the office was closed during the
hours it had posted as opened. As some residents seemed to be testing how
open the garage needs to be, regardless of the choice to keep the door up
or down, many residents shared a common disdain for the rule.
"I hope it does change. I hope it does," Jason said.
The HOA monthly meeting is scheduled to take place in two weeks, and many
residents say they plan to be there.
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them-to-l
eave-garage-doors-open/
I just got a new garage door with windows in it. Would that be good
enough?
How about those chain mail store fronts like they have in New York?
HOAs are evil incarnate.
What a fucking stupid thing to say.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-09 20:49:24 UTC
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Post by BTR1701
HOAs are evil incarnate. I'm going to ban them completely when I become
Benevolent Dictator of America.
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced
to live in such a community. If you move into such a community,
you must be aware that there will be strict rules. Sadly, many
home purchasers fail to study basic materials when they buy
property and don't know what they're getting into.

This is likewise to a municipality and school district. People
should know in advance what community standards are before moving
into a community.
Post by BTR1701
It's unbelievable that they think they have the right to force people to
either pay $200 every month or leave all their belongings exposed to the
elements and thieves. Many garages connect to the home as well, not all
of which have very secure doors, so not only are you leaving the
valuable stuff in the garage exposed, but the rest of your house as well.
Sounds like pretty much no one likes the assholes that imposed the rule,
so they should just all band together and kick the lot of them off the
board and put new people in.
You did not say why the board passed the rule, so we can't judge
it on its merits. But as you did say, any homeowner can run for
the board.

It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse. At
least in an HOA people can vote for their board or run themselves.
A Friend
2018-01-09 21:47:01 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
HOAs are evil incarnate. I'm going to ban them completely when I
become Benevolent Dictator of America.
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced to live
in such a community.
No, no, no. There is nothing voluntary about any of it. Saying
"nobody is forced to live in such a community" is beyond disingenuous
when you consider that virtually all residential communities have an
HOA or the equivalent.
If you move into such a community, you must be aware that there will
be strict rules. Sadly, many home purchasers fail to study basic
materials when they buy property and don't know what they're getting
into.
No prospective homeowner can reasonably anticipate the creation of a
plainly stupid rule such as "You must leave your garage doors open all
day."
This is likewise to a municipality and school district. People
should know in advance what community standards are before moving
into a community.
This garage-door thing is not a reasonable community standard. No one
could have anticipated it.
Post by BTR1701
It's unbelievable that they think they have the right to force
people to either pay $200 every month or leave all their belongings
exposed to the elements and thieves. Many garages connect to the
home as well, not all of which have very secure doors, so not only
are you leaving the valuable stuff in the garage exposed, but the
rest of your house as well.
Sounds like pretty much no one likes the assholes that imposed the
rule, so they should just all band together and kick the lot of
them off the board and put new people in.
You did not say why the board passed the rule, so we can't judge it
on its merits.
Sure he did. The HOA thinks that people (sub-leasees, I guess) are
living in those garages, so they want the doors left open all day in
order to allow the HOA to check up on things.
But as you did say, any homeowner can run for the board.
Yes. That's what my wife and I did. It took three years, but at the
end of it we'd dismantled the board's 1970s-era rules against things
such as horizontal siding and satellite dishes. (This was before the
1996 Telecommunications Act.) What we did was not without controversy,
but we had broad homeowner support.
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse.
No. There's the law. Tenants do not have to comply with rules that
are against public policy or that are unnecessarily intrusive -- for
example, not allowing them to have guests past 10 p.m. or something.
Landlords cannot do whatever the hell they want, and neither can HOAs.
At least in an HOA people can vote for their board or run themselves.
It'd be much simpler and quicker for these homeowners to enjoin the
HOA. Should be a slam-dunk. If the homeowners were to get together on
anything, it should be repealing the power of the HOA to fine its
members.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-09 22:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A Friend
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced to live
in such a community.
No, no, no. There is nothing voluntary about any of it. Saying
"nobody is forced to live in such a community" is beyond disingenuous
when you consider that virtually all residential communities have an
HOA or the equivalent.
There are tons of homes available at all price ranges for those who
don't want to live in an HOA community. Further, there are different
HOAs--some very intensive, some very modest, depending on the structure
of the community.
Post by A Friend
If you move into such a community, you must be aware that there will
be strict rules. Sadly, many home purchasers fail to study basic
materials when they buy property and don't know what they're getting
into.
No prospective homeowner can reasonably anticipate the creation of a
plainly stupid rule such as "You must leave your garage doors open all
day."
No reason was given for this rule. The article was crap. It's
entirely possible, for example, that this is a temporary rule
needed for maintenance purposes.
Post by A Friend
This is likewise to a municipality and school district. People
should know in advance what community standards are before moving
into a community.
This garage-door thing is not a reasonable community standard. No one
could have anticipated it.
see above.
Post by A Friend
Post by BTR1701
rule, so they should just all band together and kick the lot of
them off the board and put new people in.
You did not say why the board passed the rule, so we can't judge it
on its merits.
Sure he did. The HOA thinks that people (sub-leasees, I guess) are
living in those garages, so they want the doors left open all day in
order to allow the HOA to check up on things.
I must have missed that in the cited article. In any event, if
there is concern over an illegal use of the property, there are
usually ways to address it.
Post by A Friend
But as you did say, any homeowner can run for the board.
Yes. That's what my wife and I did. It took three years, but at the
end of it we'd dismantled the board's 1970s-era rules against things
such as horizontal siding and satellite dishes. (This was before the
1996 Telecommunications Act.) What we did was not without controversy,
but we had broad homeowner support.
As mentioned, if you were living in an apartment, that is
something you could not do. And as you saw, not everyone
agreed with you.

For instance, satellite dishes are a controversial item. Some
people want them since they want the TV services offered by a dish.
Many other people find them ugly. Some HOA by-laws prohibit them.
Post by A Friend
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse.
No. There's the law. Tenants do not have to comply with rules that
are against public policy or that are unnecessarily intrusive -- for
example, not allowing them to have guests past 10 p.m. or something.
Landlords cannot do whatever the hell they want, and neither can HOAs.
Landlords CAN establish a great many rules for the use of their
property, and the tenant has no say in the matter. In an HOA,
the homeowner can at least vote or run for the board. HOAs can
also establish a great many rules for the use of the property,
especially when there is shared infrastructure. For instance,
a high-rise building will have more rules than a single family
house community.
Post by A Friend
At least in an HOA people can vote for their board or run themselves.
It'd be much simpler and quicker for these homeowners to enjoin the
HOA. Should be a slam-dunk. If the homeowners were to get together on
anything, it should be repealing the power of the HOA to fine its
members.
HOAs that fail to enforce its bylaws or reasonable rules can become
slums very quickly.
A Friend
2018-01-09 23:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced to live
in such a community.
No, no, no. There is nothing voluntary about any of it. Saying
"nobody is forced to live in such a community" is beyond disingenuous
when you consider that virtually all residential communities have an
HOA or the equivalent.
There are tons of homes available at all price ranges for those who
don't want to live in an HOA community. Further, there are different
HOAs--some very intensive, some very modest, depending on the structure
of the community.
The purchase of a house should be determined by the needs of the buyer
and the quality of the house, not the eccentricities of the local HOA.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
If you move into such a community, you must be aware that there will
be strict rules. Sadly, many home purchasers fail to study basic
materials when they buy property and don't know what they're getting
into.
No prospective homeowner can reasonably anticipate the creation of a
plainly stupid rule such as "You must leave your garage doors open all
day."
No reason was given for this rule. The article was crap. It's
entirely possible, for example, that this is a temporary rule
needed for maintenance purposes.
That wasn't what was reported. And who cares? What kind of
maintenance does an HOA do to the insides of garages? (Answer: None.)
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
This is likewise to a municipality and school district. People
should know in advance what community standards are before moving
into a community.
This garage-door thing is not a reasonable community standard. No one
could have anticipated it.
see above.
Likewise.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
Post by BTR1701
rule, so they should just all band together and kick the lot of
them off the board and put new people in.
You did not say why the board passed the rule, so we can't judge it
on its merits.
Sure he did. The HOA thinks that people (sub-leasees, I guess) are
living in those garages, so they want the doors left open all day in
order to allow the HOA to check up on things.
I must have missed that in the cited article. In any event, if
there is concern over an illegal use of the property, there are
usually ways to address it.
Post by A Friend
But as you did say, any homeowner can run for the board.
Yes. That's what my wife and I did. It took three years, but at the
end of it we'd dismantled the board's 1970s-era rules against things
such as horizontal siding and satellite dishes. (This was before the
1996 Telecommunications Act.) What we did was not without controversy,
but we had broad homeowner support.
As mentioned, if you were living in an apartment, that is
something you could not do. And as you saw, not everyone
agreed with you.
The issues I mentioned would not have come up in an apartment building.
I really didn't (and still don't) care that not everyone agreed with
us. Most did and that was enough, as it is for most things.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
For instance, satellite dishes are a controversial item. Some
people want them since they want the TV services offered by a dish.
Many other people find them ugly. Some HOA by-laws prohibit them.
The Telecommunications Act of 1996 swept aside almost all those HOA
prohibitions, particularly the ones based on aesthetics. Whether
someone finds the dishes ugly or not hasn't mattered for more than
twenty years now.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse.
No. There's the law. Tenants do not have to comply with rules that
are against public policy or that are unnecessarily intrusive -- for
example, not allowing them to have guests past 10 p.m. or something.
Landlords cannot do whatever the hell they want, and neither can HOAs.
Landlords CAN establish a great many rules for the use of their
property, and the tenant has no say in the matter.
Sure, except for those wide-ranging areas I just pointed out.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
In an HOA,
the homeowner can at least vote or run for the board. HOAs can
also establish a great many rules for the use of the property,
especially when there is shared infrastructure. For instance,
a high-rise building will have more rules than a single family
house community.
You've provided no evidence for this, and I don't believe it anyway.
"More rules" could mean anything. In addition, a large apartment
building these days is not unlikely to be a co-op, with managerial
problems similar to those of HOAs.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
At least in an HOA people can vote for their board or run themselves.
It'd be much simpler and quicker for these homeowners to enjoin the
HOA. Should be a slam-dunk. If the homeowners were to get together on
anything, it should be repealing the power of the HOA to fine its
members.
HOAs that fail to enforce its bylaws or reasonable rules can become
slums very quickly.
"Reasonable rules." Like leaving your garage door open all day so the
HOA can spy on you? We're not talking about rules against painting
your house day-glo purple; we're talking about a rule that leaves
homeowners vulnerable to crime.

I would slam this HOA with an injunction within 24 hours, and my guess
is that I'd have the support of most of the homeowners, probably the
vast majority of them.
Obveeus
2018-01-10 00:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced to live
in such a community.
No, no, no. There is nothing voluntary about any of it. Saying
"nobody is forced to live in such a community" is beyond disingenuous
when you consider that virtually all residential communities have an
HOA or the equivalent.
There are tons of homes available at all price ranges for those who
don't want to live in an HOA community. Further, there are different
HOAs--some very intensive, some very modest, depending on the structure
of the community.
The purchase of a house should be determined by the needs of the buyer
and the quality of the house, not the eccentricities of the local HOA.
True...but people buying into an HOA area should be doing so because
they want some of the community protections that an HOA is supposed to
enforce. Maybe they don't want their neighbors parking in the yard and
dragging dirt out into the roadway after every rain. maybe they don't
want people leaving trash cans out by the curb all week. maybe they
don't want people having 2 foot high weeds. Whatever it is, the HOA
rules spell it all out and you have to sign that HOA contract as part of
the home's purchase. If a person specifically wants to be able to do
the things the HOA forbids, then they should not buy the home in the
first place.

The problem here comes from HOA laws that are changing/expanding after
the fact. I have no idea how that occurred for these people, but in my
neighborhood the HOA would have to form a vote and get a majority of
homeowners to agree before even attempting to expand rules...and long
before that a legal consultation would have derailed this 'garages must
be left open' rule.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
If you move into such a community, you must be aware that there will
be strict rules. Sadly, many home purchasers fail to study basic
materials when they buy property and don't know what they're getting
into.
No prospective homeowner can reasonably anticipate the creation of a
plainly stupid rule such as "You must leave your garage doors open all
day."
No reason was given for this rule. The article was crap. It's
entirely possible, for example, that this is a temporary rule
needed for maintenance purposes.
That wasn't what was reported. And who cares? What kind of
maintenance does an HOA do to the insides of garages? (Answer: None.)
I know someone with an HOA that cares for the lawns. Meanwhile, the
main shutoff valve for the sprinkler system is located in each tenants
garage (or maybe every other tenant's garage). I don't know if they
have ever been ordered to leave their garages open for service on the
sprinkler system, but I do recall a time that they had to arrange for
their townhome to be open so that the HOA could access the heat/AC unit
in the attic.
A Friend
2018-01-10 03:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced to live
in such a community.
No, no, no. There is nothing voluntary about any of it. Saying
"nobody is forced to live in such a community" is beyond disingenuous
when you consider that virtually all residential communities have an
HOA or the equivalent.
There are tons of homes available at all price ranges for those who
don't want to live in an HOA community. Further, there are different
HOAs--some very intensive, some very modest, depending on the structure
of the community.
The purchase of a house should be determined by the needs of the buyer
and the quality of the house, not the eccentricities of the local HOA.
True...but people buying into an HOA area should be doing so because
they want some of the community protections that an HOA is supposed to
enforce. Maybe they don't want their neighbors parking in the yard and
dragging dirt out into the roadway after every rain. maybe they don't
want people leaving trash cans out by the curb all week. maybe they
don't want people having 2 foot high weeds. Whatever it is, the HOA
rules spell it all out and you have to sign that HOA contract as part of
the home's purchase. If a person specifically wants to be able to do
the things the HOA forbids, then they should not buy the home in the
first place.
The problem here comes from HOA laws that are changing/expanding after
the fact. I have no idea how that occurred for these people, but in my
neighborhood the HOA would have to form a vote and get a majority of
homeowners to agree before even attempting to expand rules...and long
before that a legal consultation would have derailed this 'garages must
be left open' rule.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
If you move into such a community, you must be aware that there will
be strict rules. Sadly, many home purchasers fail to study basic
materials when they buy property and don't know what they're getting
into.
No prospective homeowner can reasonably anticipate the creation of a
plainly stupid rule such as "You must leave your garage doors open all
day."
No reason was given for this rule. The article was crap. It's
entirely possible, for example, that this is a temporary rule
needed for maintenance purposes.
That wasn't what was reported. And who cares? What kind of
maintenance does an HOA do to the insides of garages? (Answer: None.)
I know someone with an HOA that cares for the lawns. Meanwhile, the
main shutoff valve for the sprinkler system is located in each tenants
garage (or maybe every other tenant's garage). I don't know if they
have ever been ordered to leave their garages open for service on the
sprinkler system, but I do recall a time that they had to arrange for
their townhome to be open so that the HOA could access the heat/AC unit
in the attic.
That all sounds like a case where you buy a residential unit and have
everything done for you, including equipment maintenance, as in a
so-called senior community. Sure, in that case, repairmen would need
to be able to get at the machinery, and you would know all about that
when you bought the place; in fact, having everything done for you
might have been an important factor in your decision to buy. In the
case before us, though, the HOA wants the garage doors left open so it
can see whether anyone's living in there. Not the same thing.
Obveeus
2018-01-10 04:14:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A Friend
Post by Obveeus
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced to live
in such a community.
No, no, no. There is nothing voluntary about any of it. Saying
"nobody is forced to live in such a community" is beyond disingenuous
when you consider that virtually all residential communities have an
HOA or the equivalent.
There are tons of homes available at all price ranges for those who
don't want to live in an HOA community. Further, there are different
HOAs--some very intensive, some very modest, depending on the structure
of the community.
The purchase of a house should be determined by the needs of the buyer
and the quality of the house, not the eccentricities of the local HOA.
True...but people buying into an HOA area should be doing so because
they want some of the community protections that an HOA is supposed to
enforce. Maybe they don't want their neighbors parking in the yard and
dragging dirt out into the roadway after every rain. maybe they don't
want people leaving trash cans out by the curb all week. maybe they
don't want people having 2 foot high weeds. Whatever it is, the HOA
rules spell it all out and you have to sign that HOA contract as part of
the home's purchase. If a person specifically wants to be able to do
the things the HOA forbids, then they should not buy the home in the
first place.
The problem here comes from HOA laws that are changing/expanding after
the fact. I have no idea how that occurred for these people, but in my
neighborhood the HOA would have to form a vote and get a majority of
homeowners to agree before even attempting to expand rules...and long
before that a legal consultation would have derailed this 'garages must
be left open' rule.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
If you move into such a community, you must be aware that there will
be strict rules. Sadly, many home purchasers fail to study basic
materials when they buy property and don't know what they're getting
into.
No prospective homeowner can reasonably anticipate the creation of a
plainly stupid rule such as "You must leave your garage doors open all
day."
No reason was given for this rule. The article was crap. It's
entirely possible, for example, that this is a temporary rule
needed for maintenance purposes.
That wasn't what was reported. And who cares? What kind of
maintenance does an HOA do to the insides of garages? (Answer: None.)
I know someone with an HOA that cares for the lawns. Meanwhile, the
main shutoff valve for the sprinkler system is located in each tenants
garage (or maybe every other tenant's garage). I don't know if they
have ever been ordered to leave their garages open for service on the
sprinkler system, but I do recall a time that they had to arrange for
their townhome to be open so that the HOA could access the heat/AC unit
in the attic.
That all sounds like a case where you buy a residential unit and have
everything done for you, including equipment maintenance, as in a
so-called senior community.
It isn't senior living, but all yard work and exterior stuff (painting,
roof, gutters) is covered by the HOA.
Post by A Friend
Sure, in that case, repairmen would need
to be able to get at the machinery, and you would know all about that
when you bought the place; in fact, having everything done for you
might have been an important factor in your decision to buy. In the
case before us, though, the HOA wants the garage doors left open so it
can see whether anyone's living in there. Not the same thing.
You asked:
'What kind of maintenance does an HOA do to the insides of garages?'
you answered:
'(Answer: None.)'

I was just pointing out a case where there is, indeed, a maintenance
potential inside the garage that the HOA covers.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-10 21:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
True...but people buying into an HOA area should be doing so because
they want some of the community protections that an HOA is supposed to
enforce. Maybe they don't want their neighbors parking in the yard and
dragging dirt out into the roadway after every rain. maybe they don't
want people leaving trash cans out by the curb all week. maybe they
don't want people having 2 foot high weeds. Whatever it is, the HOA
rules spell it all out and you have to sign that HOA contract as part of
the home's purchase. If a person specifically wants to be able to do
the things the HOA forbids, then they should not buy the home in the
first place.
Excellent point.
Post by Obveeus
I know someone with an HOA that cares for the lawns. Meanwhile, the
main shutoff valve for the sprinkler system is located in each tenants
garage (or maybe every other tenant's garage). I don't know if they
have ever been ordered to leave their garages open for service on the
sprinkler system, but I do recall a time that they had to arrange for
their townhome to be open so that the HOA could access the heat/AC unit
in the attic.
True. Leaving access to maintain utilities as described is very
common.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-10 21:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
There are tons of homes available at all price ranges for those who
don't want to live in an HOA community. Further, there are different
HOAs--some very intensive, some very modest, depending on the structure
of the community.
The purchase of a house should be determined by the needs of the buyer
and the quality of the house, not the eccentricities of the local HOA.
Lots of homeowners prefer an HOA. They have certain advantages.
But, as mentioned, if you don't want an HOA, there are plenty of
homes where there isn't one.

In the case of a multi-family building, in order to get the benefits
of home ownership (as opposed to renting), it is almost necessary
to have an HOA to administer the significant common element.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
No reason was given for this rule. The article was crap. It's
entirely possible, for example, that this is a temporary rule
needed for maintenance purposes.
That wasn't what was reported. And who cares? What kind of
maintenance does an HOA do to the insides of garages? (Answer: None.)
Very often, especially in multi-family housing, utility lines
run through multiple units and need servicing.
Post by A Friend
The issues I mentioned would not have come up in an apartment building.
I really didn't (and still don't) care that not everyone agreed with
us. Most did and that was enough, as it is for most things.
You don't care if you can't get people to agree with you? Sometimes
that isn't possible, but making a good case for any policy is a
key part of the job.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
For instance, satellite dishes are a controversial item. Some
people want them since they want the TV services offered by a dish.
Many other people find them ugly. Some HOA by-laws prohibit them.
The Telecommunications Act of 1996 swept aside almost all those HOA
prohibitions, particularly the ones based on aesthetics. Whether
someone finds the dishes ugly or not hasn't mattered for more than
twenty years now.
The key word is "almost". In many communities (depending on the
structure), the HOA restrictions on dishes and antennas remain in
force.

Indeed, as mentioned, HOA's vary greatly from place to place and
one can't generalize about them.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
In an HOA,
the homeowner can at least vote or run for the board. HOAs can
also establish a great many rules for the use of the property,
especially when there is shared infrastructure. For instance,
a high-rise building will have more rules than a single family
house community.
You've provided no evidence for this, and I don't believe it anyway.
"More rules" could mean anything. In addition, a large apartment
building these days is not unlikely to be a co-op, with managerial
problems similar to those of HOAs.
A high rise building will need policies regarding trash disposal
and elevator usage, to name just two. There will also likely be
shared utility lines.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
HOAs that fail to enforce its bylaws or reasonable rules can become
slums very quickly.
"Reasonable rules." Like leaving your garage door open all day so the
HOA can spy on you? We're not talking about rules against painting
your house day-glo purple; we're talking about a rule that leaves
homeowners vulnerable to crime.
A lot of people feel they have the right TO paint their home day-glo
purple and HOA has no right to tell them otherwise. In that case,
is the HOA being evil and power-hungry?
Post by A Friend
I would slam this HOA with an injunction within 24 hours, and my guess
is that I'd have the support of most of the homeowners, probably the
vast majority of them.
A Friend
2018-01-10 22:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
There are tons of homes available at all price ranges for those who
don't want to live in an HOA community. Further, there are different
HOAs--some very intensive, some very modest, depending on the structure
of the community.
The purchase of a house should be determined by the needs of the buyer
and the quality of the house, not the eccentricities of the local HOA.
Lots of homeowners prefer an HOA. They have certain advantages.
But, as mentioned, if you don't want an HOA, there are plenty of
homes where there isn't one.
Not around here, or anywhere around here, unless you buy a farmette or
something equally isolated. There are not "plenty" of homes around
here without an HOA. In fact, I don't know of any.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
In the case of a multi-family building, in order to get the benefits
of home ownership (as opposed to renting), it is almost necessary
to have an HOA to administer the significant common element.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
No reason was given for this rule. The article was crap. It's
entirely possible, for example, that this is a temporary rule
needed for maintenance purposes.
That wasn't what was reported. And who cares? What kind of
maintenance does an HOA do to the insides of garages? (Answer: None.)
Very often, especially in multi-family housing, utility lines
run through multiple units and need servicing.
That is not a reason to force homeowners to keep the garage doors open
all day, and it certainly isn't the reason being given in this
instance.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
The issues I mentioned would not have come up in an apartment building.
I really didn't (and still don't) care that not everyone agreed with
us. Most did and that was enough, as it is for most things.
You don't care if you can't get people to agree with you? Sometimes
that isn't possible, but making a good case for any policy is a
key part of the job.
I don't care if I can't get a stubborn minority to move on a issue, no.
Why should I? Months of discussion, and yet all the compromise is
supposed to be from one side? Homey don't play that.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
For instance, satellite dishes are a controversial item. Some
people want them since they want the TV services offered by a dish.
Many other people find them ugly. Some HOA by-laws prohibit them.
The Telecommunications Act of 1996 swept aside almost all those HOA
prohibitions, particularly the ones based on aesthetics. Whether
someone finds the dishes ugly or not hasn't mattered for more than
twenty years now.
The key word is "almost". In many communities (depending on the
structure), the HOA restrictions on dishes and antennas remain in
force.
No, they don't. The keywords are actually "swept aside." Bans are not
allowed unless you live in a place like Colonial Williamsburg; any HOA
still enforcing a ban is in violation of federal law. An HOA can have
you place a dish so it can't be seen from the street, so long as your
signal reception is not impeded, and it can keep you from installing at
a particular spot if it (somehow) impedes traffic. It can also have
you register your dish with the HOA. That's about it. This has been
true for nearly *twenty-two years* now.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Indeed, as mentioned, HOA's vary greatly from place to place and
one can't generalize about them.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
In an HOA,
the homeowner can at least vote or run for the board. HOAs can
also establish a great many rules for the use of the property,
especially when there is shared infrastructure. For instance,
a high-rise building will have more rules than a single family
house community.
You've provided no evidence for this, and I don't believe it anyway.
"More rules" could mean anything. In addition, a large apartment
building these days is not unlikely to be a co-op, with managerial
problems similar to those of HOAs.
A high rise building will need policies regarding trash disposal
and elevator usage, to name just two. There will also likely be
shared utility lines.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
HOAs that fail to enforce its bylaws or reasonable rules can become
slums very quickly.
"Reasonable rules." Like leaving your garage door open all day so the
HOA can spy on you? We're not talking about rules against painting
your house day-glo purple; we're talking about a rule that leaves
homeowners vulnerable to crime.
A lot of people feel they have the right TO paint their home day-glo
purple and HOA has no right to tell them otherwise. In that case,
is the HOA being evil and power-hungry?
Oh, please. Talk about the open garage doors, why don'tcha?
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
I would slam this HOA with an injunction within 24 hours, and my guess
is that I'd have the support of most of the homeowners, probably the
vast majority of them.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-10 22:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Lots of homeowners prefer an HOA. They have certain advantages.
But, as mentioned, if you don't want an HOA, there are plenty of
homes where there isn't one.
Not around here, or anywhere around here, unless you buy a farmette or
something equally isolated. There are not "plenty" of homes around
here without an HOA. In fact, I don't know of any.
Young members of my family are buying their first house. They
live all over the country. None had any trouble finding a non
HOA house.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Very often, especially in multi-family housing, utility lines
run through multiple units and need servicing.
That is not a reason to force homeowners to keep the garage doors open
all day, and it certainly isn't the reason being given in this
instance.
Still waiting for an _authoritative_ source. A small article in
a news article 3,000 miles away doesn't cut it. See my comment
on the outrage over the U.S. flag. As others pointed out, the
garage door issue is extremely questionable.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
You don't care if you can't get people to agree with you? Sometimes
that isn't possible, but making a good case for any policy is a
key part of the job.
I don't care if I can't get a stubborn minority to move on a issue, no.
Why should I? Months of discussion, and yet all the compromise is
supposed to be from one side? Homey don't play that.
Yes, at some point you do have to move on, but every effort at
inclusion should be made first.
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
The key word is "almost". In many communities (depending on the
structure), the HOA restrictions on dishes and antennas remain in
force.
No, they don't. The keywords are actually "swept aside." Bans are not
allowed unless you live in a place like Colonial Williamsburg; any HOA
still enforcing a ban is in violation of federal law. An HOA can have
you place a dish so it can't be seen from the street, so long as your
signal reception is not impeded, and it can keep you from installing at
a particular spot if it (somehow) impedes traffic. It can also have
you register your dish with the HOA. That's about it. This has been
true for nearly *twenty-two years* now.
Not true, as some homeowners found out the hard way. As mentioned,
it depends on the building.
A Friend
2018-01-10 23:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Lots of homeowners prefer an HOA. They have certain advantages.
But, as mentioned, if you don't want an HOA, there are plenty of
homes where there isn't one.
Not around here, or anywhere around here, unless you buy a farmette or
something equally isolated. There are not "plenty" of homes around
here without an HOA. In fact, I don't know of any.
Young members of my family are buying their first house. They
live all over the country. None had any trouble finding a non
HOA house.
Good for them, but they didn't look around here.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Very often, especially in multi-family housing, utility lines
run through multiple units and need servicing.
That is not a reason to force homeowners to keep the garage doors open
all day, and it certainly isn't the reason being given in this
instance.
Still waiting for an _authoritative_ source. A small article in
a news article 3,000 miles away doesn't cut it. See my comment
on the outrage over the U.S. flag. As others pointed out, the
garage door issue is extremely questionable.
We have before us a story with multiple, named sources that was
circulated by a professional organization used to dealing with such
matters because, at base, they affect property values. I don't know
why the issue of the garage doors is "extremely questionable" unless
it's just that you don't want it to be true. That's no reason for me
to doubt it, and you haven't given me any.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
You don't care if you can't get people to agree with you? Sometimes
that isn't possible, but making a good case for any policy is a
key part of the job.
I don't care if I can't get a stubborn minority to move on a issue, no.
Why should I? Months of discussion, and yet all the compromise is
supposed to be from one side? Homey don't play that.
Yes, at some point you do have to move on, but every effort at
inclusion should be made first.
You were there? What? No?
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
The key word is "almost". In many communities (depending on the
structure), the HOA restrictions on dishes and antennas remain in
force.
No, they don't. The keywords are actually "swept aside." Bans are not
allowed unless you live in a place like Colonial Williamsburg; any HOA
still enforcing a ban is in violation of federal law. An HOA can have
you place a dish so it can't be seen from the street, so long as your
signal reception is not impeded, and it can keep you from installing at
a particular spot if it (somehow) impedes traffic. It can also have
you register your dish with the HOA. That's about it. This has been
true for nearly *twenty-two years* now.
Not true, as some homeowners found out the hard way. As mentioned,
it depends on the building.
First, it's true. Go look up the law. I dealt with it for years.
What was truly amazing was the speed with which the homeowners here got
dishes installed as soon as they were allowed to do so. The local
cable company was a turd, run by a good ol' boy who didn't believe in
paying for programming. (For instance, we had no Turner channels, no
Court TV.) The cabler prospered because competition wasn't allowed.
The old HOA had opposed dishes, it said, because of aesthetics; in
fact, it opposed them because it got a payment of $1 per household per
month from the local cable company for "access." The dish companies
pay nothing, of course -- nor should they, since no "access" is
involved.

"The building"? I'm talking about a community of single-family homes
and townhouses. Individual buildings are a different matter because
apartment and condo ownership usually extends only to the inside walls
of the dwelling. I'm not talking about that, or renters, or whatever
else might get dredged up here. That's not the kind of community we're
talking about.
BTR1701
2018-01-11 05:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The key word is "almost". In many communities (depending on the
structure), the HOA restrictions on dishes and antennas remain in
force.
No, they don't. The keywords are actually "swept aside." Bans are not
allowed unless you live in a place like Colonial Williamsburg; any HOA
still enforcing a ban is in violation of federal law. An HOA can have
you place a dish so it can't be seen from the street, so long as your
signal reception is not impeded, and it can keep you from installing at
a particular spot if it (somehow) impedes traffic. It can also have
you register your dish with the HOA. That's about it. This has been
true for nearly *twenty-two years* now.
Not true, as some homeowners found out the hard way. As mentioned,
it depends on the building.
When I lived in the Washington DC area, I lived in a 40-story highrise
in Virginia. The building management sent out a notice that satellite
dishes were not allowed on any of the balconies because they were
unsightly and anyone who had one had 30 days to get rid of it. Three
days later, they sent out another notice which said that after
consulting with their attorneys, they were informed that they were
prohibited by law from banning satellite dishes, so people could
disregard the previous letter. However, they did require that the dishes
not be affixed to the building or any balcony railings (which was within
their rights).

Basically, if you wanted a dish, you could have one but you had to pour
concrete into a steel bucket and sink a pole in it, then affix the dish
to that.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-11 19:42:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
Not true, as some homeowners found out the hard way. As mentioned,
it depends on the building.
When I lived in the Washington DC area, I lived in a 40-story highrise
in Virginia. The building management sent out a notice that satellite
dishes were not allowed on any of the balconies because they were
unsightly and anyone who had one had 30 days to get rid of it. Three
days later, they sent out another notice which said that after
consulting with their attorneys, they were informed that they were
prohibited by law from banning satellite dishes, so people could
disregard the previous letter. However, they did require that the dishes
not be affixed to the building or any balcony railings (which was within
their rights).
A lot of people who live in that kind of multi-family housing
assume, incorrectly, they can do certain things, such as install
dishes, shovel out their own parking space and not pay for that service,
etc.
Ed Stasiak
2018-01-10 01:19:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Landlords CAN establish a great many rules for the use of their
property, and the tenant has no say in the matter.
Former landlord here and no, they can not.

While regulations vary from place to place, tenants have the right to
fair use of the property they’re paying for, nor can landlords impose
rules that clearly endanger the tenants’s lives or property (as this
garage door policy clearly does).
The Horny Goat
2018-01-10 17:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ed Stasiak
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Landlords CAN establish a great many rules for the use of their
property, and the tenant has no say in the matter.
Former landlord here and no, they can not.
While regulations vary from place to place, tenants have the right to
fair use of the property they’re paying for, nor can landlords impose
rules that clearly endanger the tenants’s lives or property (as this
garage door policy clearly does).
Unfortunately the utility companies CAN - I'm still angry about 2
years ago when the power company cut our store's power for 12 hours to
replace a power pole and left our notice HANGING ON OUR FRONT DOOR for
the whole neighbourhood to see (including potential thieves).

Obviously this meant both our alarm and security camera system were
down and the FOLLOWING day (e.g. after the power was restored) we were
burglarized. Fortunately crooks are dumb and we got lucky with a
passerby with cell phone at 0600 who photo'd the getaway car and they
were caught within 20 minutes and we made a full recovery - it was
about $15000 of merchandise and would have been our biggest loss in 40
years in business.

Point is the utility company COULD have put their notice through our
mail slot but chose instead to notify all passers by and I am stone
cold convinced by doing so they notified the bad guys that we were
vulnerable - and since they notified us a week ahead of time the bad
guys had time to prepare even if they were too stupid to get the day
right!
Obveeus
2018-01-10 18:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ed Stasiak
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Landlords CAN establish a great many rules for the use of their
property, and the tenant has no say in the matter.
Former landlord here and no, they can not.
While regulations vary from place to place, tenants have the right to
fair use of the property they’re paying for, nor can landlords impose
rules that clearly endanger the tenants’s lives or property (as this
garage door policy clearly does).
Unfortunately the utility companies CAN - I'm still angry about 2
years ago when the power company cut our store's power for 12 hours to
replace a power pole and left our notice HANGING ON OUR FRONT DOOR for
the whole neighbourhood to see (including potential thieves).
Obviously this meant both our alarm and security camera system were
down
Those things are supposed to have battery backup.
Post by The Horny Goat
and the FOLLOWING day (e.g. after the power was restored) we were
burglarized. Fortunately crooks are dumb and we got lucky with a
passerby with cell phone at 0600 who photo'd the getaway car and they
were caught within 20 minutes and we made a full recovery - it was
about $15000 of merchandise and would have been our biggest loss in 40
years in business.
Point is the utility company COULD have put their notice through our
mail slot
Could they? Is a mail slot different than a mailbox in the eyes of the
postal lawman and/or Canada? I know I used to shove newspapers through
the mail slots when I had a delivery route as a kid, but I always looked
both ways to make sure no postal workers were watching.
Post by The Horny Goat
but chose instead to notify all passers by and I am stone
cold convinced by doing so they notified the bad guys that we were
vulnerable
A row of utility trucks and a bunch of guys milling around pointing at a
wire or a hole in the ground is usually a dead giveaway as well.
Post by The Horny Goat
- and since they notified us a week ahead of time the bad
guys had time to prepare even if they were too stupid to get the day
right!
If it weren't for the cell phone guy, wouldn't they have gotten away
with it?
anim8rfsk
2018-01-10 19:15:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ed Stasiak
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Landlords CAN establish a great many rules for the use of their
property, and the tenant has no say in the matter.
Former landlord here and no, they can not.
While regulations vary from place to place, tenants have the right to
fair use of the property they’re paying for, nor can landlords impose
rules that clearly endanger the tenants’s lives or property (as this
garage door policy clearly does).
Unfortunately the utility companies CAN - I'm still angry about 2
years ago when the power company cut our store's power for 12 hours to
replace a power pole and left our notice HANGING ON OUR FRONT DOOR for
the whole neighbourhood to see (including potential thieves).
Obviously this meant both our alarm and security camera system were
down
Those things are supposed to have battery backup.
But they aren't intended for long power outages. They're more so if
somebody cuts the power to your place, it doesn't give them free
immediate access. Same reason the alarm goes off when the phone goes
out, which is why I don't have Cox telephone.
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
and the FOLLOWING day (e.g. after the power was restored) we were
burglarized. Fortunately crooks are dumb and we got lucky with a
passerby with cell phone at 0600 who photo'd the getaway car and they
were caught within 20 minutes and we made a full recovery - it was
about $15000 of merchandise and would have been our biggest loss in 40
years in business.
Point is the utility company COULD have put their notice through our
mail slot
Could they? Is a mail slot different than a mailbox in the eyes of the
postal lawman and/or Canada? I know I used to shove newspapers through
the mail slots when I had a delivery route as a kid, but I always looked
both ways to make sure no postal workers were watching.
Mail slots aren't postal service. Anybody can use them. I put one in
the office door when I started not being there every day. UPS, FedEx,
local restaurant menus, everybody uses it.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Obveeus
2018-01-10 19:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ed Stasiak
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Landlords CAN establish a great many rules for the use of their
property, and the tenant has no say in the matter.
Former landlord here and no, they can not.
While regulations vary from place to place, tenants have the right to
fair use of the property they’re paying for, nor can landlords impose
rules that clearly endanger the tenants’s lives or property (as this
garage door policy clearly does).
Unfortunately the utility companies CAN - I'm still angry about 2
years ago when the power company cut our store's power for 12 hours to
replace a power pole and left our notice HANGING ON OUR FRONT DOOR for
the whole neighbourhood to see (including potential thieves).
Obviously this meant both our alarm and security camera system were
down
Those things are supposed to have battery backup.
But they aren't intended for long power outages. They're more so if
somebody cuts the power to your place, it doesn't give them free
immediate access.
12 hours isn't that long of an outage, though...and my point was more
along the lines that the utility company putting notes onto people's
doors (something that they are probably required to do) won't actually
give bad guys any heads up about it being safe to rob the place because
alarm systems don't turn off just because the power is cut.
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
Point is the utility company COULD have put their notice through our
mail slot
Could they? Is a mail slot different than a mailbox in the eyes of the
postal lawman and/or Canada? I know I used to shove newspapers through
the mail slots when I had a delivery route as a kid, but I always looked
both ways to make sure no postal workers were watching.
Mail slots aren't postal service. Anybody can use them. I put one in
the office door when I started not being there every day. UPS, FedEx,
local restaurant menus, everybody uses it.
I know everybody does use the slot, I'm just wondering what the official
Post Office rule is on that. Looking...
https://pe.usps.com/archive/html/dmmarchive20030810/D041.htm

Section 1.2 says that door slots are not equivalent to mailboxes and
since they are not officially mailboxes they can be used for other
purposes. Still, there are rules for how to build a slot:
https://www.usps.com/manage/mailboxes.htm#
anim8rfsk
2018-01-10 20:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ed Stasiak
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Landlords CAN establish a great many rules for the use of their
property, and the tenant has no say in the matter.
Former landlord here and no, they can not.
While regulations vary from place to place, tenants have the right to
fair use of the property they’re paying for, nor can landlords impose
rules that clearly endanger the tenants’s lives or property (as this
garage door policy clearly does).
Unfortunately the utility companies CAN - I'm still angry about 2
years ago when the power company cut our store's power for 12 hours to
replace a power pole and left our notice HANGING ON OUR FRONT DOOR for
the whole neighbourhood to see (including potential thieves).
Obviously this meant both our alarm and security camera system were
down
Those things are supposed to have battery backup.
But they aren't intended for long power outages. They're more so if
somebody cuts the power to your place, it doesn't give them free
immediate access.
12 hours isn't that long of an outage, though...and my point was more
along the lines that the utility company putting notes onto people's
doors (something that they are probably required to do) won't actually
give bad guys any heads up about it being safe to rob the place because
alarm systems don't turn off just because the power is cut.
Eventually we'll all have Tesla tile roofs (now in Spanish tile!) and
Tesla power walls.
Post by Obveeus
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
Point is the utility company COULD have put their notice through our
mail slot
Could they? Is a mail slot different than a mailbox in the eyes of the
postal lawman and/or Canada? I know I used to shove newspapers through
the mail slots when I had a delivery route as a kid, but I always looked
both ways to make sure no postal workers were watching.
Mail slots aren't postal service. Anybody can use them. I put one in
the office door when I started not being there every day. UPS, FedEx,
local restaurant menus, everybody uses it.
I know everybody does use the slot, I'm just wondering what the official
Post Office rule is on that. Looking...
https://pe.usps.com/archive/html/dmmarchive20030810/D041.htm
Section 1.2 says that door slots are not equivalent to mailboxes and
since they are not officially mailboxes they can be used for other
https://www.usps.com/manage/mailboxes.htm#
I made my landlord put mine in, so it's on them. :)
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Obveeus
2018-01-10 21:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Obveeus
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ed Stasiak
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Landlords CAN establish a great many rules for the use of their
property, and the tenant has no say in the matter.
Former landlord here and no, they can not.
While regulations vary from place to place, tenants have the right to
fair use of the property they’re paying for, nor can landlords impose
rules that clearly endanger the tenants’s lives or property (as this
garage door policy clearly does).
Unfortunately the utility companies CAN - I'm still angry about 2
years ago when the power company cut our store's power for 12 hours to
replace a power pole and left our notice HANGING ON OUR FRONT DOOR for
the whole neighbourhood to see (including potential thieves).
Obviously this meant both our alarm and security camera system were
down
Those things are supposed to have battery backup.
But they aren't intended for long power outages. They're more so if
somebody cuts the power to your place, it doesn't give them free
immediate access.
12 hours isn't that long of an outage, though...and my point was more
along the lines that the utility company putting notes onto people's
doors (something that they are probably required to do) won't actually
give bad guys any heads up about it being safe to rob the place because
alarm systems don't turn off just because the power is cut.
Eventually we'll all have Tesla tile roofs (now in Spanish tile!)
I might consider it if my house faced the right way. Still, I worry
about the loss of efficiency with dirt/mold/etc... buildup.

...and, of course, the HOA would throw a fit.
Post by anim8rfsk
and
Tesla power walls.
Now able to store 1.21 jigowatts of electricity, just in case you need
it some time.
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Obveeus
I know everybody does use the slot, I'm just wondering what the official
Post Office rule is on that. Looking...
https://pe.usps.com/archive/html/dmmarchive20030810/D041.htm
Section 1.2 says that door slots are not equivalent to mailboxes and
since they are not officially mailboxes they can be used for other
https://www.usps.com/manage/mailboxes.htm#
I made my landlord put mine in, so it's on them. :)
Sure, but it will still be the USPS that confiscates your door if it
isn't up to code.
Ed Stasiak
2018-01-10 21:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Obveeus
anim8rfsk
Eventually we'll all have Tesla tile roofs (now in Spanish tile!)
I might consider it if my house faced the right way.  Still, I worry
about the loss of efficiency with dirt/mold/etc... buildup.
There’s also the issue of photovoltaic panels generating less and
less electricity over time, as the materials in the cells break down.

Combination solar / wind power systems seem to be the way to go
nowadays; Loading Image...
The Horny Goat
2018-01-12 08:28:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
I know everybody does use the slot, I'm just wondering what the official
Post Office rule is on that. Looking...
https://pe.usps.com/archive/html/dmmarchive20030810/D041.htm
Section 1.2 says that door slots are not equivalent to mailboxes and
since they are not officially mailboxes they can be used for other
https://www.usps.com/manage/mailboxes.htm#
Well since I'm a Canadian USPS regs wouldn't apply but I take your
point.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-01-10 21:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ed Stasiak
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Landlords CAN establish a great many rules for the use of their
property, and the tenant has no say in the matter.
Former landlord here and no, they can not.
While regulations vary from place to place, tenants have the right to
fair use of the property they’re paying for, nor can landlords impose
rules that clearly endanger the tenants’s lives or property (as this
garage door policy clearly does).
Unfortunately the utility companies CAN - I'm still angry about 2
years ago when the power company cut our store's power for 12 hours to
replace a power pole and left our notice HANGING ON OUR FRONT DOOR for
the whole neighbourhood to see (including potential thieves).
Obviously this meant both our alarm and security camera system were
down
Those things are supposed to have battery backup.
Post by The Horny Goat
and the FOLLOWING day (e.g. after the power was restored) we were
burglarized. Fortunately crooks are dumb and we got lucky with a
passerby with cell phone at 0600 who photo'd the getaway car and they
were caught within 20 minutes and we made a full recovery - it was
about $15000 of merchandise and would have been our biggest loss in 40
years in business.
Point is the utility company COULD have put their notice through our
mail slot
Could they?  Is a mail slot different than a mailbox in the eyes of the
postal lawman and/or Canada?  I know I used to shove newspapers through
the mail slots when I had a delivery route as a kid, but I always looked
both ways to make sure no postal workers were watching.
When I was a kid stuffing flyers in peoples' mail boxes and mail slots I
had a letter carrier tell me I couldn't do that.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-10 21:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
When I was a kid stuffing flyers in peoples' mail boxes and mail slots I
had a letter carrier tell me I couldn't do that.
_Technically_, mail slots and mail boxes are restricted to U.S. Mail
only and not to be used for other things. Note that newspaper delivery
often uses separate boxes.

When HOA's send out notices, often the carriers are instructed not to
put it in the mailbox.

But in reality, most U.S. Mail employees ignore this rule and don't
care. Further, paper notices are less common, with email and voice
messages replacing it, and there is less U.S. Mail. Lastly, many
communities, especially newer ones, have cluster boxes which are
locked.
BTR1701
2018-01-11 05:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
When I was a kid stuffing flyers in peoples' mail boxes and mail slots I
had a letter carrier tell me I couldn't do that.
_Technically_, mail slots and mail boxes are restricted to U.S. Mail
only and not to be used for other things.
Nope. The link from the Postal Service that Obveeus posted says mail
slots are not restricted the way mailboxes are.

https://pe.usps.com/archive/html/dmmarchive20030810/D041.htm
Adam H. Kerman
2018-01-15 06:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
When I was a kid stuffing flyers in peoples' mail boxes and mail slots I
had a letter carrier tell me I couldn't do that.
_Technically_, mail slots and mail boxes are restricted to U.S. Mail
only and not to be used for other things. Note that newspaper delivery
often uses separate boxes. . . .
False as to fact, hancock. Under a group of laws called the Postal
Express Statutes, the monopoly Congress gave to the post office extends
to delivery of mail into mailboxes. It does not extend to mailslots,
which is merely a pass-through a door or wall. Any courrier can deliver
through a mail slot.

Furthermore, there are rules about attachments to mailboxes, so the
newspaper box has to be attached directly to the support, not the
mailbox.

A Friend
2018-01-10 22:06:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ed Stasiak
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Landlords CAN establish a great many rules for the use of their
property, and the tenant has no say in the matter.
Former landlord here and no, they can not.
While regulations vary from place to place, tenants have the right to
fair use of the property they’re paying for, nor can landlords impose
rules that clearly endanger the tenants’s lives or property (as this
garage door policy clearly does).
Unfortunately the utility companies CAN - I'm still angry about 2
years ago when the power company cut our store's power for 12 hours to
replace a power pole and left our notice HANGING ON OUR FRONT DOOR for
the whole neighbourhood to see (including potential thieves).
Obviously this meant both our alarm and security camera system were
down
Those things are supposed to have battery backup.
Post by The Horny Goat
and the FOLLOWING day (e.g. after the power was restored) we were
burglarized. Fortunately crooks are dumb and we got lucky with a
passerby with cell phone at 0600 who photo'd the getaway car and they
were caught within 20 minutes and we made a full recovery - it was
about $15000 of merchandise and would have been our biggest loss in 40
years in business.
Point is the utility company COULD have put their notice through our
mail slot
Could they?  Is a mail slot different than a mailbox in the eyes of the
postal lawman and/or Canada?  I know I used to shove newspapers through
the mail slots when I had a delivery route as a kid, but I always looked
both ways to make sure no postal workers were watching.
When I was a kid stuffing flyers in peoples' mail boxes and mail slots I
had a letter carrier tell me I couldn't do that.
You can't stuff mailboxes. Mail slots in doors are okay.
The Horny Goat
2018-01-12 08:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
Obviously this meant both our alarm and security camera system were
down
Those things are supposed to have battery backup.
They do - unfortunately down time was about an hour or two beyond
battery life...
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
and the FOLLOWING day (e.g. after the power was restored) we were
burglarized. Fortunately crooks are dumb and we got lucky with a
passerby with cell phone at 0600 who photo'd the getaway car and they
were caught within 20 minutes and we made a full recovery - it was
about $15000 of merchandise and would have been our biggest loss in 40
years in business.
Point is the utility company COULD have put their notice through our
mail slot
Could they? Is a mail slot different than a mailbox in the eyes of the
postal lawman and/or Canada? I know I used to shove newspapers through
the mail slots when I had a delivery route as a kid, but I always looked
both ways to make sure no postal workers were watching.
The slot is a hinged aluminum pieces recessed into our glass door
owned by ourselves. I routinely get items NOT from the post office -
most recently Canada Customs documents from our freight forwarder who
lives near our store and has his office across town.
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
but chose instead to notify all passers by and I am stone
cold convinced by doing so they notified the bad guys that we were
vulnerable
A row of utility trucks and a bunch of guys milling around pointing at a
wire or a hole in the ground is usually a dead giveaway as well.
True though not relevant to my point which was that they had a
relatively secure method they chose not to use.
Post by Obveeus
Post by The Horny Goat
- and since they notified us a week ahead of time the bad
guys had time to prepare even if they were too stupid to get the day
right!
If it weren't for the cell phone guy, wouldn't they have gotten away
with it?
Probably yes. However our alarm system SHOULD have told us - and they
broke our door down about 12 hrs AFTER the power was restored not
during the downtime!
Ed Stasiak
2018-01-10 21:07:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The Horny Goat
Ed Stasiak
While regulations vary from place to place, tenants have the right to
fair use of the property they’re paying for, nor can landlords impose
rules that clearly endanger the tenants’s lives or property (as this
garage door policy clearly does).
Unfortunately the utility companies CAN
Sure, emergency problems or maintenance is another issue and the tenant
can’t prevent the landlord from get things fixed, but the LL can’t put in a clause
that prevents the tenant’s “fair use” of the rented property.

For example, my home town’s rental ordinances (and probably all town’s) states
that a tenant renting a home has the right fair use for the ENTIRE property, not
just the house.

This is to prevent LLs from including stuff like; “Hereto forthwith, the tenant can
not use the detached garage, as Ima gunna keep my boat and a bunch of rusty
ass car parts in there, treating it like a storage unit.”

Loading Image...
Rhino
2018-01-11 00:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ed Stasiak
The Horny Goat
Ed Stasiak
While regulations vary from place to place, tenants have the right to
fair use of the property they’re paying for, nor can landlords impose
rules that clearly endanger the tenants’s lives or property (as this
garage door policy clearly does).
Unfortunately the utility companies CAN
Sure, emergency problems or maintenance is another issue and the tenant
can’t prevent the landlord from get things fixed, but the LL can’t put in a clause
that prevents the tenant’s “fair use” of the rented property.
For example, my home town’s rental ordinances (and probably all town’s) states
that a tenant renting a home has the right fair use for the ENTIRE property, not
just the house.
This is to prevent LLs from including stuff like; “Hereto forthwith, the tenant can
not use the detached garage, as Ima gunna keep my boat and a bunch of rusty
ass car parts in there, treating it like a storage unit.”
https://images-production.global.ssl.fastly.net/uploads/photos/file/122974/norman-fell.jpg
I remember being shocked by something a work colleague told me. She
lived in a single family suburban house and they were forbidden to put
up an outdoor clothesline. Apparently, it was part of their contract
with the developer of the suburb, not a home-owners association, and the
rule was there because clotheslines were felt to bring down property
values. I suppose the developers reasoned that anyone who didn't use a
dryer did so because they couldn't afford them so they would make the
street look shabby by hanging their laundry out for everyone to see.

Of course this "logic" fails to reckon with people like my mother, who
used her clothesline in good weather for two reasons: 1) to save on
electricity costs (which have gone from among the lowest in North
America to one of the highest in North America during the administration
of our current provincial government); 2) she liked the way the laundry
smelled when it dried outside.

Luckily, this house is not in an area that is under developer rules and
there is no mandatory homeowners association in the area.

I'm tempted to make a categorical statement like "I would never live in
any place that put such rules in place" but I can't, in good conscience,
do so. There *is* a place for rules, even rules that might seem oppressive.

For example, having had to deal with noisy neighbours on occasion, I can
well imagine situations where some kind of noise rule/bylaw could be
extremely valuable. If people could make racket of any kind, as loud as
they wanted, whenever they wanted, with no restrictions, that would go a
VERY long way to ruining my enjoyment of my home. Just picture a
neighbourhood where your neighbour ran his leaf blower (or chain saw) at
4am! Or the kids across the street had a band and were practicing death
metal or rap at maximum value at all hours of the day and night. That
would hurt anyone's quality of life.

Having said that, I'm a reasonable guy. I remember people having issues
with the musicians in our university residence wailing away in the music
room while they were trying to study in the carrels a few feet away; I
was one of the noise-makers. But when I became Division Manager, I had
our maintenance crew soundproof that room so that the musicians could do
their music *without* disrupting other people who were studying. I'd
look for solutions like that if I was on a Home Owners Association board
and people complained about noise. You *can* often find reasonable
compromises.

Ditto with the suspected subtenancies in garages. Mount surveillance
cameras that could see the suspected garages and then watch the tapes,
just like we see in crime shows. If no one but the registered home owner
and his family ever enters or leaves the garage, it would be pretty
clear that they don't have people living in their garage. Technology can
be your friend.
--
Rhino
A Friend
2018-01-11 03:52:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rhino
I remember being shocked by something a work colleague told me. She
lived in a single family suburban house and they were forbidden to put
up an outdoor clothesline. Apparently, it was part of their contract
with the developer of the suburb, not a home-owners association, and the
rule was there because clotheslines were felt to bring down property
values.
The thing about the clotheslines is common. It's a rule here as well.
We are allowed "an umbrella-like device" to hang clothes on. Just
about everybody has a dryer, but many people like the way clothes and
bedsheets smell when they're dried outside.
BTR1701
2018-01-11 05:26:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rhino
I remember being shocked by something a work colleague told me. She
lived in a single family suburban house and they were forbidden to put
up an outdoor clothesline. Apparently, it was part of their contract
with the developer of the suburb, not a home-owners association
That wasn't smart on the developer's part because a contract is only
good with the original owners of the house. If they sell, the contract
evaporates. The new owners will not be legally bound by a contract they
had no part in drafting and which they did not sign.

That's why HOAs use deed restrictions, not contracts, which are attached
to property, not the owners of it, and survive from owner to owner.
Post by Rhino
For example, having had to deal with noisy neighbours on occasion, I can
well imagine situations where some kind of noise rule/bylaw could be
extremely valuable. If people could make racket of any kind, as loud as
they wanted, whenever they wanted, with no restrictions, that would go a
VERY long way to ruining my enjoyment of my home. Just picture a
neighbourhood where your neighbour ran his leaf blower (or chain saw) at
4am!
Several years ago the show 90210 used to regularly shoot in my
neighborhood. They were here at least twice a month and when they were,
they'd take up all the street parking with their dozens of equipment
trucks and create a massive headache for everyone by shutting down
streets and making people wait 10-15 minutes at time just get to their
own homes (or leave them).

The production people would usually mollify us all by giving us free
access to craft services, which served some delicious food. All you can
eat. It was more than enough to placate me. I actually looked forward to
them showing up. (Free food and having Jessica Lowndes walking around
the neighborhood is never a bad thing.)

But there was one guy a few houses down who absolutely hated them and he
would wait for them to set up a shot and roll film, then start mowing
his lawn or hammering nails into something, basically creating a massive
racket to fuck with their scene. The TV people complained to the cops,
the cops told him to cut it out, and it became some sort of legal battle
over what constitutes "disturbing the peace".

Never did find out who won, since the show was canceled and it stopped
being an issue.
Rhino
2018-01-11 14:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
I remember being shocked by something a work colleague told me. She
lived in a single family suburban house and they were forbidden to put
up an outdoor clothesline. Apparently, it was part of their contract
with the developer of the suburb, not a home-owners association
That wasn't smart on the developer's part because a contract is only
good with the original owners of the house. If they sell, the contract
evaporates. The new owners will not be legally bound by a contract they
had no part in drafting and which they did not sign.
That's why HOAs use deed restrictions, not contracts, which are attached
to property, not the owners of it, and survive from owner to owner.
This conversation was a long time ago and I may be misremembering it. Or
maybe Canadian/Ontario real estate law works a bit differently than in
the US and the contract carries over for subsequent owners?
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
For example, having had to deal with noisy neighbours on occasion, I can
well imagine situations where some kind of noise rule/bylaw could be
extremely valuable. If people could make racket of any kind, as loud as
they wanted, whenever they wanted, with no restrictions, that would go a
VERY long way to ruining my enjoyment of my home. Just picture a
neighbourhood where your neighbour ran his leaf blower (or chain saw) at
4am!
Several years ago the show 90210 used to regularly shoot in my
neighborhood. They were here at least twice a month and when they were,
they'd take up all the street parking with their dozens of equipment
trucks and create a massive headache for everyone by shutting down
streets and making people wait 10-15 minutes at time just get to their
own homes (or leave them).
The production people would usually mollify us all by giving us free
access to craft services, which served some delicious food. All you can
eat. It was more than enough to placate me. I actually looked forward to
them showing up. (Free food and having Jessica Lowndes walking around
the neighborhood is never a bad thing.)
But there was one guy a few houses down who absolutely hated them and he
would wait for them to set up a shot and roll film, then start mowing
his lawn or hammering nails into something, basically creating a massive
racket to fuck with their scene. The TV people complained to the cops,
the cops told him to cut it out, and it became some sort of legal battle
over what constitutes "disturbing the peace".
Never did find out who won, since the show was canceled and it stopped
being an issue.
I can see both sides of that little dilemma. They filmed an episode of a
TV series, Top Cops, on my street once when I lived in Toronto and lots
of people came out to watch. I don't remember anyone complaining about
anything. But I recently rewatched my DVD of The Man From Earth and one
of the bonus features mentioned that they'd had a real challenge making
the film because the property on which they were filming - pretty much
the whole thing takes place in a cabin - was next door to a property
owned by a successful stunt coordinator who had set up a motocross track
for his sons, a track they used a lot. The production company frequently
needed quiet for their scenes and were regularly going over to ask the
sons not to ride for a while. The producers seemed pretty empathetic to
the kids and didn't like asking them to stop riding; they realized that
the area was frequently used for filming - the rocky outcropping where
they'd shot the Gorn episode on the original Star Trek was in some of
the shots - and knew these kids were probably being asked not to ride
quite frequently. But they had to get their shots too so they asked anyway.
--
Rhino
BTR1701
2018-01-11 16:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
They filmed an episode of a TV series, Top Cops, on my street once
when I lived in Toronto and lots of people came out to watch.
they realized that the area was frequently used for filming - the rocky
outcropping where they'd shot the Gorn episode on the original Star
Trek was in some of the shots
The Gorn espisode was shot at Vasquez Rocks in Agua Dulce, north L.A.
County, not Canadia.

Loading Image...

https://www.hikespeak.com/trails/vasquez-rocks-hike-pacific-crest-trail-l
oop/
anim8rfsk
2018-01-11 21:25:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
They filmed an episode of a TV series, Top Cops, on my street once
when I lived in Toronto and lots of people came out to watch.
they realized that the area was frequently used for filming - the rocky
outcropping where they'd shot the Gorn episode on the original Star
Trek was in some of the shots
The Gorn espisode was shot at Vasquez Rocks in Agua Dulce, north L.A.
County, not Canadia.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jjyf7r6s7aeip8n/Gorn.jpg?dl=0
https://www.hikespeak.com/trails/vasquez-rocks-hike-pacific-crest-trail-l
oop/
And if you turn the camera to face the opposite direction towards what's
now the parking lot, bingo, you've got the fort at Cestus 3. Or what's
left of it anyway after those rat bastard Gorns sneak attacked.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Dimensional Traveler
2018-01-11 22:45:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by BTR1701
They filmed an episode of a TV series, Top Cops, on my street once
when I lived in Toronto and lots of people came out to watch.
they realized that the area was frequently used for filming - the rocky
outcropping where they'd shot the Gorn episode on the original Star
Trek was in some of the shots
The Gorn espisode was shot at Vasquez Rocks in Agua Dulce, north L.A.
County, not Canadia.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jjyf7r6s7aeip8n/Gorn.jpg?dl=0
https://www.hikespeak.com/trails/vasquez-rocks-hike-pacific-crest-trail-l
oop/
And if you turn the camera to face the opposite direction towards what's
now the parking lot, bingo, you've got the fort at Cestus 3. Or what's
left of it anyway after those rat bastard Gorns sneak attacked.
I've been there! Have the pics somewhere.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
The Horny Goat
2018-01-12 08:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 09:35:45 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
That's why HOAs use deed restrictions, not contracts, which are attached
to property, not the owners of it, and survive from owner to owner.
This conversation was a long time ago and I may be misremembering it. Or
maybe Canadian/Ontario real estate law works a bit differently than in
the US and the contract carries over for subsequent owners?
These are fairly common in what we call 'strata title' buildings
(typically multi-unit or apartment style) but are virtually unheard of
in housing units with their own entrances or garages. These are almost
unheard of in facilities where there are no common areas.

In most places in Canada it is not permitted to have interior doors
from garages to the main house as there is believed to be a fire
hazard. We have such a door (which is at the end of a hallway
typically used for storage) but we have an open carport.

Our first house was a row house which essentially a duplex where each
house had a side garage and the street was garage - house - house -
garage etc to the other end of the street the distinguishing feature
being that they were built on a common below ground concrete
foundation. This form of foundation was said to reduce the cost of
construction $20-30k per unit with wood/stucco being the usual
construction style above ground. (Ours was 2 storey with a basement
the upper half of which was above ground)
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-11 19:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
Several years ago the show 90210 used to regularly shoot in my
neighborhood. They were here at least twice a month and when they were,
they'd take up all the street parking with their dozens of equipment
trucks and create a massive headache for everyone by shutting down
streets and making people wait 10-15 minutes at time just get to their
own homes (or leave them).
It was a similar situation when Northern Exposure was in production.
At first, people were pretty happy about the influx of business and
money, but the inconveniences you describe grew tiresome.
Post by BTR1701
The production people would usually mollify us all by giving us free
access to craft services, which served some delicious food. All you can
eat. It was more than enough to placate me. I actually looked forward to
them showing up. (Free food and having Jessica Lowndes walking around
the neighborhood is never a bad thing.)
But there was one guy a few houses down who absolutely hated them and he
would wait for them to set up a shot and roll film, then start mowing
his lawn or hammering nails into something, basically creating a massive
racket to fuck with their scene. The TV people complained to the cops,
the cops told him to cut it out, and it became some sort of legal battle
over what constitutes "disturbing the peace".
Never did find out who won, since the show was canceled and it stopped
being an issue.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-11 19:40:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rhino
I remember being shocked by something a work colleague told me. She
lived in a single family suburban house and they were forbidden to put
up an outdoor clothesline. Apparently, it was part of their contract
with the developer of the suburb, not a home-owners association, and the
rule was there because clotheslines were felt to bring down property
values. I suppose the developers reasoned that anyone who didn't use a
dryer did so because they couldn't afford them so they would make the
street look shabby by hanging their laundry out for everyone to see.
That goes back to Levitt and his communities. Some 50,000 homes
had clothesline and other restrictions to maintain the appearance.
Levitt personally drove around making inspections for non-compliance.
The Horny Goat
2018-01-10 17:12:21 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by A Friend
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced to live
in such a community.
No, no, no. There is nothing voluntary about any of it. Saying
"nobody is forced to live in such a community" is beyond disingenuous
when you consider that virtually all residential communities have an
HOA or the equivalent.
There are tons of homes available at all price ranges for those who
don't want to live in an HOA community. Further, there are different
HOAs--some very intensive, some very modest, depending on the structure
of the community.
I've been on the board of a community association for over 10+ years.
It's completely voluntary and doesn't pretend quasi-legislative
powers.

In our area CAs are about lobbying the local council (we have a
Official Community Plan that developers regularly want to trash) and
staging events like the recently concluded Christmas Tree festival or
back in 2010 during the Olympics a "Celebration Site" complete with
huge projection TV (medal award ceremonies were particularly popular)
and guest athletes.

The idea of this kind of HOA would be abhorrent to most of us around
here.
Obveeus
2018-01-10 00:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A Friend
Post by BTR1701
HOAs are evil incarnate. I'm going to ban them completely when I
become Benevolent Dictator of America.
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced to live
in such a community.
No, no, no. There is nothing voluntary about any of it. Saying
"nobody is forced to live in such a community" is beyond disingenuous
when you consider that virtually all residential communities have an
HOA or the equivalent.
I don't think that is true at all. It might be hard to find new home
communities without HOAs, but most communities with homes older than 20
years or so aren't going to have an HOA.
Post by A Friend
If you move into such a community, you must be aware that there will
be strict rules. Sadly, many home purchasers fail to study basic
materials when they buy property and don't know what they're getting
into.
No prospective homeowner can reasonably anticipate the creation of a
plainly stupid rule such as "You must leave your garage doors open all
day."
Of course, the rule is really 'no renting out portions of your home to
others since these are single family residences'. Perhaps the HOA
should spend its time and resources suing the violators until they are
forced to sell and leave. I hate people who turn good neighborhoods
into trailer trash neighborhoods and people turning their homes into
multifamily housing are at the top of that list.
Post by A Friend
But as you did say, any homeowner can run for the board.
Yes. That's what my wife and I did. It took three years, but at the
end of it we'd dismantled the board's 1970s-era rules against things
such as horizontal siding and satellite dishes. (This was before the
1996 Telecommunications Act.) What we did was not without controversy,
but we had broad homeowner support.
I'm guessing that what you really had was more along the lines of broad
homeowner apathy because most people just want to live and let live and
not get caught up in these kind of Hatfield and McCoy scenarios. Half
the time an HOA wants to make any real changes, the biggest hurdle is to
get enough people to show up that they have a quorum for a vote.
Post by A Friend
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse.
No. There's the law. Tenants do not have to comply with rules that
are against public policy or that are unnecessarily intrusive -- for
example, not allowing them to have guests past 10 p.m. or something.
Landlords cannot do whatever the hell they want, and neither can HOAs.
Buried in most city/county property laws are rules about what
constitutes 'single family dwelling'...and renting out a garage as
separate living quarters isn't legal.
Post by A Friend
At least in an HOA people can vote for their board or run themselves.
It'd be much simpler and quicker for these homeowners to enjoin the
HOA. Should be a slam-dunk. If the homeowners were to get together on
anything, it should be repealing the power of the HOA to fine its
members.
...or maybe just instruct them to stick to fining the members that are
violating the original code.
A Friend
2018-01-10 03:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
Post by A Friend
Post by BTR1701
HOAs are evil incarnate. I'm going to ban them completely when I
become Benevolent Dictator of America.
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced to live
in such a community.
No, no, no. There is nothing voluntary about any of it. Saying
"nobody is forced to live in such a community" is beyond disingenuous
when you consider that virtually all residential communities have an
HOA or the equivalent.
I don't think that is true at all. It might be hard to find new home
communities without HOAs, but most communities with homes older than 20
years or so aren't going to have an HOA.
Post by A Friend
If you move into such a community, you must be aware that there will
be strict rules. Sadly, many home purchasers fail to study basic
materials when they buy property and don't know what they're getting
into.
No prospective homeowner can reasonably anticipate the creation of a
plainly stupid rule such as "You must leave your garage doors open all
day."
Of course, the rule is really 'no renting out portions of your home to
others since these are single family residences'. Perhaps the HOA
should spend its time and resources suing the violators until they are
forced to sell and leave. I hate people who turn good neighborhoods
into trailer trash neighborhoods and people turning their homes into
multifamily housing are at the top of that list.
Post by A Friend
But as you did say, any homeowner can run for the board.
Yes. That's what my wife and I did. It took three years, but at the
end of it we'd dismantled the board's 1970s-era rules against things
such as horizontal siding and satellite dishes. (This was before the
1996 Telecommunications Act.) What we did was not without controversy,
but we had broad homeowner support.
I'm guessing that what you really had was more along the lines of broad
homeowner apathy because most people just want to live and let live and
not get caught up in these kind of Hatfield and McCoy scenarios. Half
the time an HOA wants to make any real changes, the biggest hurdle is to
get enough people to show up that they have a quorum for a vote.
You can guess however you like, of course, but I was here. There was a
lot of anger because some really stupid decisions were being made. We
fixed everything we could.
Post by Obveeus
Post by A Friend
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse.
No. There's the law. Tenants do not have to comply with rules that
are against public policy or that are unnecessarily intrusive -- for
example, not allowing them to have guests past 10 p.m. or something.
Landlords cannot do whatever the hell they want, and neither can HOAs.
Buried in most city/county property laws are rules about what
constitutes 'single family dwelling'...and renting out a garage as
separate living quarters isn't legal.
Similarly, you could argue that the HOA should require everyone's
shades to be left up so it can peek in there and see if you're doing
anything illegal at all.
Obveeus
2018-01-10 04:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A Friend
Post by Obveeus
Post by A Friend
Post by BTR1701
HOAs are evil incarnate. I'm going to ban them completely when I
become Benevolent Dictator of America.
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced to live
in such a community.
No, no, no. There is nothing voluntary about any of it. Saying
"nobody is forced to live in such a community" is beyond disingenuous
when you consider that virtually all residential communities have an
HOA or the equivalent.
I don't think that is true at all. It might be hard to find new home
communities without HOAs, but most communities with homes older than 20
years or so aren't going to have an HOA.
Post by A Friend
If you move into such a community, you must be aware that there will
be strict rules. Sadly, many home purchasers fail to study basic
materials when they buy property and don't know what they're getting
into.
No prospective homeowner can reasonably anticipate the creation of a
plainly stupid rule such as "You must leave your garage doors open all
day."
Of course, the rule is really 'no renting out portions of your home to
others since these are single family residences'. Perhaps the HOA
should spend its time and resources suing the violators until they are
forced to sell and leave. I hate people who turn good neighborhoods
into trailer trash neighborhoods and people turning their homes into
multifamily housing are at the top of that list.
Post by A Friend
But as you did say, any homeowner can run for the board.
Yes. That's what my wife and I did. It took three years, but at the
end of it we'd dismantled the board's 1970s-era rules against things
such as horizontal siding and satellite dishes. (This was before the
1996 Telecommunications Act.) What we did was not without controversy,
but we had broad homeowner support.
I'm guessing that what you really had was more along the lines of broad
homeowner apathy because most people just want to live and let live and
not get caught up in these kind of Hatfield and McCoy scenarios. Half
the time an HOA wants to make any real changes, the biggest hurdle is to
get enough people to show up that they have a quorum for a vote.
You can guess however you like, of course, but I was here. There was a
lot of anger because some really stupid decisions were being made. We
fixed everything we could.
Sure, everyone in the room was angry and had an opinion. ...but what
percentage of homeowner showed up to voice it? is it anything like most
voting situations where the majority (or close to it) stays home? That
was my point. People at a meeting might be riled up, but most home
owners aren't going to care one way or the other about satellite dishes
on the houses because they have cable and it works or they have over the
air and it works or they don't watch TV and it works for them...or maybe
you just scheduled the HOA meeting at the same time as their favorite
show and they had to set priorities.
Post by A Friend
Post by Obveeus
Post by A Friend
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse.
No. There's the law. Tenants do not have to comply with rules that
are against public policy or that are unnecessarily intrusive -- for
example, not allowing them to have guests past 10 p.m. or something.
Landlords cannot do whatever the hell they want, and neither can HOAs.
Buried in most city/county property laws are rules about what
constitutes 'single family dwelling'...and renting out a garage as
separate living quarters isn't legal.
Similarly, you could argue that the HOA should require everyone's
shades to be left up so it can peek in there and see if you're doing
anything illegal at all.
I didn't argue for the open garage door policy at all. I pointed out
that the people who have caused the situation to come to that are the
ones who have caused the real problem by renting out their garages as
living quarters.

There are other ways to detect people living in garages, such as lots of
cars at the house, lots of garbage being put out to the curb...most
obviously, encourage neighbors to tattle on each other because they
should care about other people dragging down their property value. The
HOA should be trying to stop room/garage sublets in the neighborhood,
they just shouldn't be trying to do it through idiotic rules such as
'leave the garage doors open for inspection'.
A Friend
2018-01-10 09:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
I didn't argue for the open garage door policy at all.
I should have said "one could argue," which is what I meant by that
"you." Sorry.
Post by Obveeus
There are other ways to detect people living in garages, such as lots of
cars at the house, lots of garbage being put out to the curb...most
obviously, encourage neighbors to tattle on each other because they
should care about other people dragging down their property value. The
HOA should be trying to stop room/garage sublets in the neighborhood,
they just shouldn't be trying to do it through idiotic rules such as
'leave the garage doors open for inspection'.
Agreed on all of that. Garbage and cars are good indicators, and
(better yet) they're in plain sight. In addition, the neighbors would
probably know all about everything, even without garbage and cars.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-10 21:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
Sure, everyone in the room was angry and had an opinion. ...but what
percentage of homeowner showed up to voice it? is it anything like most
voting situations where the majority (or close to it) stays home? That
was my point. People at a meeting might be riled up, but most home
owners aren't going to care one way or the other about satellite dishes
on the houses because they have cable and it works or they have over the
air and it works or they don't watch TV and it works for them...or maybe
you just scheduled the HOA meeting at the same time as their favorite
show and they had to set priorities.
Yes, a common situation. People who actually show up at the meeting
are screaming, but in reality they represent a small minority of all
the homeowners.

Homeowner apathy is a big problem with HOA's. Unfortunately, in many
cases, dingbats with no life get on the Board because good people just
aren't interested. It does not end well when that happens. (Sometimes
if the situation gets really critical, good people will decide to get
involved to protect their investment.)
BTR1701
2018-01-10 04:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A Friend
Post by Obveeus
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse.
No. There's the law. Tenants do not have to comply with rules that
are against public policy or that are unnecessarily intrusive -- for
example, not allowing them to have guests past 10 p.m. or something.
Landlords cannot do whatever the hell they want, and neither can HOAs.
Buried in most city/county property laws are rules about what
constitutes 'single family dwelling'...and renting out a garage as
separate living quarters isn't legal.
Similarly, you could argue that the HOA should require everyone's
shades to be left up so it can peek in there and see if you're doing
anything illegal at all.
This whole deal reminds me of the book THE ASSOCIATION by horror author
Bentley Little:

Barry and Maureen Welch are thrilled to exchange their chaotic
California lifestyle for the idyllic confines of Bonita Vista, a
ritzy gated community in the unincorporated town of Corban, Utah.
But as Bonita Vista residents, they're required to become members
of the neighborhood's Homeowners' Association, a meddling group
that uses its authority to spy on neighbors, eradicate unauthorized
pets and dismember anyone who fails to pay Association dues and
fines.

Maureen, an accountant, and Barry, a writer who is banned by the
Association from writing at home, soon find themselves trapped in
a deranged world where even one unintended violation of the HOA's
mystical charter can spell terrifying doom.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-10 21:34:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
I don't think that is true at all. It might be hard to find new home
communities without HOAs, but most communities with homes older than 20
years or so aren't going to have an HOA.
True. Depending on the area, they may be plenty of brand new
homes, in all price ranges, without an HOA.

Some HOA's are very simple, just there to cut the grass in
common areas or maybe run the community pool.
Post by Obveeus
Of course, the rule is really 'no renting out portions of your home to
others since these are single family residences'. Perhaps the HOA
should spend its time and resources suing the violators until they are
forced to sell and leave. I hate people who turn good neighborhoods
into trailer trash neighborhoods and people turning their homes into
multifamily housing are at the top of that list.
Good points.
Post by Obveeus
I'm guessing that what you really had was more along the lines of broad
homeowner apathy because most people just want to live and let live and
not get caught up in these kind of Hatfield and McCoy scenarios. Half
the time an HOA wants to make any real changes, the biggest hurdle is to
get enough people to show up that they have a quorum for a vote.
True.
A Friend
2018-01-10 22:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Obveeus
I don't think that is true at all. It might be hard to find new home
communities without HOAs, but most communities with homes older than 20
years or so aren't going to have an HOA.
True. Depending on the area, they may be plenty of brand new
homes, in all price ranges, without an HOA.
Some HOA's are very simple, just there to cut the grass in
common areas or maybe run the community pool.
Post by Obveeus
Of course, the rule is really 'no renting out portions of your home to
others since these are single family residences'. Perhaps the HOA
should spend its time and resources suing the violators until they are
forced to sell and leave. I hate people who turn good neighborhoods
into trailer trash neighborhoods and people turning their homes into
multifamily housing are at the top of that list.
Good points.
Post by Obveeus
I'm guessing that what you really had was more along the lines of broad
homeowner apathy because most people just want to live and let live and
not get caught up in these kind of Hatfield and McCoy scenarios. Half
the time an HOA wants to make any real changes, the biggest hurdle is to
get enough people to show up that they have a quorum for a vote.
True.
This community is 41 years old and has an HOA. So does the one right
next to us. (Everything else around here is farmland.) I ran the damn
HOA here for almost four years, and I know what I'm talking about. You
can credit (or blame) apathy or whatever, and you can make up
"alternative facts" about communities older than 20 years not having
HOAs, but none of it counts out here in the real world. Okay?
Obveeus
2018-01-11 00:30:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Obveeus
I don't think that is true at all. It might be hard to find new home
communities without HOAs, but most communities with homes older than 20
years or so aren't going to have an HOA.
True. Depending on the area, they may be plenty of brand new
homes, in all price ranges, without an HOA.
Some HOA's are very simple, just there to cut the grass in
common areas or maybe run the community pool.
Post by Obveeus
Of course, the rule is really 'no renting out portions of your home to
others since these are single family residences'. Perhaps the HOA
should spend its time and resources suing the violators until they are
forced to sell and leave. I hate people who turn good neighborhoods
into trailer trash neighborhoods and people turning their homes into
multifamily housing are at the top of that list.
Good points.
Post by Obveeus
I'm guessing that what you really had was more along the lines of broad
homeowner apathy because most people just want to live and let live and
not get caught up in these kind of Hatfield and McCoy scenarios. Half
the time an HOA wants to make any real changes, the biggest hurdle is to
get enough people to show up that they have a quorum for a vote.
True.
This community is 41 years old and has an HOA. So does the one right
next to us. (Everything else around here is farmland.) I ran the damn
HOA here for almost four years, and I know what I'm talking about. You
can credit (or blame) apathy or whatever, and you can make up
"alternative facts" about communities older than 20 years not having
HOAs, but none of it counts out here in the real world. Okay?
Out in the real world, it is a fact that there are many communities
without an HOA. maybe your tiny spot of farmland is different, but it
is not the norm, even if HOAs are becoming the norm for newer communities.

As for apathy...seriously, are you going to try and claim that everyone
in the neighborhood was interested and responsive to every little issue
the HOA dealt with? That everyone in the community showed up for
monthly meetings (or even an annual board meeting to elect people to the
HOA)? If so, your HOA is far from the norm in that respect as well.
A Friend
2018-01-11 03:48:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Obveeus
Post by A Friend
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Obveeus
I don't think that is true at all. It might be hard to find new home
communities without HOAs, but most communities with homes older than 20
years or so aren't going to have an HOA.
True. Depending on the area, they may be plenty of brand new
homes, in all price ranges, without an HOA.
Some HOA's are very simple, just there to cut the grass in
common areas or maybe run the community pool.
Post by Obveeus
Of course, the rule is really 'no renting out portions of your home to
others since these are single family residences'. Perhaps the HOA
should spend its time and resources suing the violators until they are
forced to sell and leave. I hate people who turn good neighborhoods
into trailer trash neighborhoods and people turning their homes into
multifamily housing are at the top of that list.
Good points.
Post by Obveeus
I'm guessing that what you really had was more along the lines of broad
homeowner apathy because most people just want to live and let live and
not get caught up in these kind of Hatfield and McCoy scenarios. Half
the time an HOA wants to make any real changes, the biggest hurdle is to
get enough people to show up that they have a quorum for a vote.
True.
This community is 41 years old and has an HOA. So does the one right
next to us. (Everything else around here is farmland.) I ran the damn
HOA here for almost four years, and I know what I'm talking about. You
can credit (or blame) apathy or whatever, and you can make up
"alternative facts" about communities older than 20 years not having
HOAs, but none of it counts out here in the real world. Okay?
Out in the real world, it is a fact that there are many communities
without an HOA. maybe your tiny spot of farmland is different, but it
is not the norm, even if HOAs are becoming the norm for newer communities.
As for apathy...seriously, are you going to try and claim that everyone
in the neighborhood was interested and responsive to every little issue
the HOA dealt with? That everyone in the community showed up for
monthly meetings (or even an annual board meeting to elect people to the
HOA)? If so, your HOA is far from the norm in that respect as well.
No, of course everyone didn't show up at the annual meeting. We went
door to door and got the homeowners' proxies. We had more than enough.

I'm not going to debate the facts of what happened here. That's
ridiculous.
BTR1701
2018-01-09 21:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
HOAs are evil incarnate. I'm going to ban them completely when I become
Benevolent Dictator of America.
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced
to live in such a community.
It's getting to be that way. You can hardly find housing these days that
isn't part of one of these evil organizations.

If you move into such a community,
you must be aware that there will be strict rules. Sadly, many
home purchasers fail to study basic materials when they buy
property and don't know what they're getting into.
I would bet a large sum of money that this particular situation-- "The HOA
can order residents to leave doors and windows open and leave their homes
accessible to the public whenever it sees fit"-- was not in any of the deed
restrictions for people to peruse prior to purchase.

This likely falls under one of those catchall clauses that they like to
stick in there that says something like "...and anything else the HOA deems
necessary for the community". To say the residents should have been aware
of the possibility of such an absurd requirement before moving in strains
credulity.

In any event, an HOA isn't omnipotent no matter what vague and overbroad
clauses it puts in the deed restriction. It can't legally require people to
put their health and safety at risk, nor can it require residents to expose
property to danger of theft.
Post by BTR1701
It's unbelievable that they think they have the right to force people to
either pay $200 every month or leave all their belongings exposed to the
elements and thieves. Many garages connect to the home as well, not all
of which have very secure doors, so not only are you leaving the
valuable stuff in the garage exposed, but the rest of your house as well.
Sounds like pretty much no one likes the assholes that imposed the rule,
so they should just all band together and kick the lot of them off the
board and put new people in.
You did not say why the board passed the rule, so we can't judge
it on its merits.
I didn't have to say, as I was not the news reporter writing the story.

Nevertheless, the reason was that one of the residents was caught letting
illegals live in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must
be left open during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell if
people are living in garages.
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse.
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they only have to
comply with the rules stated in the lease. If my landlord called me up
today and said, "From now on, you must keep all your doors and windows
unlocked and open", I would most certainly *not* be required to comply.
anim8rfsk
2018-01-09 22:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
HOAs are evil incarnate. I'm going to ban them completely when I become
Benevolent Dictator of America.
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced
to live in such a community.
It's getting to be that way. You can hardly find housing these days that
isn't part of one of these evil organizations.
If you move into such a community,
you must be aware that there will be strict rules. Sadly, many
home purchasers fail to study basic materials when they buy
property and don't know what they're getting into.
I would bet a large sum of money that this particular situation-- "The HOA
can order residents to leave doors and windows open and leave their homes
accessible to the public whenever it sees fit"-- was not in any of the deed
restrictions for people to peruse prior to purchase.
This likely falls under one of those catchall clauses that they like to
stick in there that says something like "...and anything else the HOA deems
necessary for the community". To say the residents should have been aware
of the possibility of such an absurd requirement before moving in strains
credulity.
In any event, an HOA isn't omnipotent no matter what vague and overbroad
clauses it puts in the deed restriction. It can't legally require people to
put their health and safety at risk, nor can it require residents to expose
property to danger of theft.
Post by BTR1701
It's unbelievable that they think they have the right to force people to
either pay $200 every month or leave all their belongings exposed to the
elements and thieves. Many garages connect to the home as well, not all
of which have very secure doors, so not only are you leaving the
valuable stuff in the garage exposed, but the rest of your house as well.
Sounds like pretty much no one likes the assholes that imposed the rule,
so they should just all band together and kick the lot of them off the
board and put new people in.
You did not say why the board passed the rule, so we can't judge
it on its merits.
I didn't have to say, as I was not the news reporter writing the story.
Nevertheless, the reason was that one of the residents was caught letting
illegals live in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must
be left open during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell if
people are living in garages.
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse.
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they only have to
comply with the rules stated in the lease. If my landlord called me up
today and said, "From now on, you must keep all your doors and windows
unlocked and open", I would most certainly *not* be required to comply.
My office landlord put a clause in the least that said something like
"any new rules Lessor chooses to make at any time retroactively become
part of this lease agreement"

I laughed.

And made them take it out.

It would be tougher to negotiate that with an HoA though.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-09 22:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced
to live in such a community.
It's getting to be that way. You can hardly find housing these days that
isn't part of one of these evil organizations.
I don't know about your area, but my area has tons of free-standing
homes in all price ranges.

It's really up to the homeowner to think about what they want.
Someone who wants to remake their property their own way and
do their own maintenance should obviously not live in an HOA.
Someone who wants the convenience of an apartment and equity
would consider an HOA. Also, HOA's themselves vary greatly.
Post by BTR1701
If you move into such a community,
you must be aware that there will be strict rules. Sadly, many
home purchasers fail to study basic materials when they buy
property and don't know what they're getting into.
I would bet a large sum of money that this particular situation-- "The HOA
can order residents to leave doors and windows open and leave their homes
accessible to the public whenever it sees fit"-- was not in any of the deed
restrictions for people to peruse prior to purchase.
I would bet that there is a lot more to this issue than the news
report is telling us, as is often the case.
Post by BTR1701
This likely falls under one of those catchall clauses that they like to
stick in there that says something like "...and anything else the HOA deems
necessary for the community". To say the residents should have been aware
of the possibility of such an absurd requirement before moving in strains
credulity.
In any event, an HOA isn't omnipotent no matter what vague and overbroad
clauses it puts in the deed restriction. It can't legally require people to
put their health and safety at risk, nor can it require residents to expose
property to danger of theft.
Once again, we don't know all the details.
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
It's unbelievable that they think they have the right to force people to
either pay $200 every month or leave all their belongings exposed to the
elements and thieves. Many garages connect to the home as well, not all
of which have very secure doors, so not only are you leaving the
valuable stuff in the garage exposed, but the rest of your house as well.
Sounds like pretty much no one likes the assholes that imposed the rule,
so they should just all band together and kick the lot of them off the
board and put new people in.
You did not say why the board passed the rule, so we can't judge
it on its merits.
I didn't have to say, as I was not the news reporter writing the story.
Nevertheless, the reason was that one of the residents was caught letting
illegals live in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must
be left open during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell if
people are living in garages.
See above. We don't know all the facts.
Post by BTR1701
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse.
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they only have to
comply with the rules stated in the lease. If my landlord called me up
today and said, "From now on, you must keep all your doors and windows
unlocked and open", I would most certainly *not* be required to comply.
Yes, but the landlord could require a lot of things in the lease.
BTR1701
2018-01-10 03:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced
to live in such a community.
It's getting to be that way. You can hardly find housing these days that
isn't part of one of these evil organizations.
If you move into such a community, you must be aware that there
will be strict rules. Sadly, many home purchasers fail to study
basic materials when they buy property and don't know what they're
getting into.
I would bet a large sum of money that this particular situation--
"The HOA can order residents to leave doors and windows open and
leave their homes accessible to the public whenever it sees fit"--
was not in any of the deed restrictions for people to peruse prior to
purchase.
I would bet that there is a lot more to this issue than the news
report is telling us
I wouldn't.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
This likely falls under one of those catchall clauses that they
like to stick in there that says something like "...and anything else
the HOA deems necessary for the community". To say the residents
should have been aware of the possibility of such an absurd requirement
before moving in strains credulity.
In any event, an HOA isn't omnipotent no matter what vague and
overbroad clauses it puts in the deed restriction. It can't legally
require people to put their health and safety at risk, nor can it
require residents to expose property to danger of theft.
Once again, we don't know all the details.
We know enough.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
It's unbelievable that they think they have the right to force
people to either pay $200 every month or leave all their belongings
exposed to the elements and thieves. Many garages connect to the
home as well, not all of which have very secure doors, so not only
are you leaving the valuable stuff in the garage exposed, but the
rest of your house as well.
Sounds like pretty much no one likes the assholes that imposed the
rule, so they should just all band together and kick the lot of them
off the board and put new people in.
You did not say why the board passed the rule, so we can't judge
it on its merits.
I didn't have to say, as I was not the news reporter writing the story.
Nevertheless, the reason was that one of the residents was caught letting
illegals live in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must
be left open during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell if
people are living in garages.
See above. We don't know all the facts.
We know enough.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they have to
comply with all the rules the landlord and have no recourse.
It should be noted that if someone rents a property, they only have to
comply with the rules stated in the lease. If my landlord called me up
today and said, "From now on, you must keep all your doors and windows
unlocked and open", I would most certainly *not* be required to comply.
Yes, but the landlord could require a lot of things in the lease.
A lease term that requires a resident to compromise his/her physical
safety or expose their property to theft will not survive a legal
challenge.
BTR1701
2018-01-10 03:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
HOAs are evil incarnate. I'm going to ban them completely when I
become Benevolent Dictator of America.
HOA's are private voluntary associations. Nobody is forced
to live in such a community. If you move into such a community,
you must be aware that there will be strict rules. Sadly, many
home purchasers fail to study basic materials when they buy
property and don't know what they're getting into.
I wonder if the HOA will be willing to reimburse homeowners for the
decline in property values? After all, who's going to want to move into
a house where they'll be required to expose everything in their garage
to theft, let alone the eyesore of a neighborhood where everyone's junky
garage is on full display?

Seems like just one or two lawsuits for compensation would bankrupt the
HOA altogether.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-10 21:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
I wonder if the HOA will be willing to reimburse homeowners for the
decline in property values? After all, who's going to want to move into
a house where they'll be required to expose everything in their garage
to theft, let alone the eyesore of a neighborhood where everyone's junky
garage is on full display?
Seems like just one or two lawsuits for compensation would bankrupt the
HOA altogether.
Umm, the HOA _IS_ the homeowners, it is not some independent entity.
If the HOA goes broke, the homeowners are obligated to make up the
shortfall.
BTR1701
2018-01-10 22:52:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
I wonder if the HOA will be willing to reimburse homeowners for the
decline in property values? After all, who's going to want to move into
a house where they'll be required to expose everything in their garage
to theft, let alone the eyesore of a neighborhood where everyone's junky
garage is on full display?
Seems like just one or two lawsuits for compensation would bankrupt the
HOA altogether.
Umm, the HOA _IS_ the homeowners, it is not some independent entity.
If the HOA goes broke, the homeowners are obligated to make up the
shortfall.
Many HOA's are incorporated separate entities. If it goes bankrupt, it has
to dissolve. Easy way for these residents to get it out of their hair and
put their garage doors back down.
ZZyXX
2018-01-09 20:43:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by anim8rfsk
I just got a new garage door with windows in it. Would that be good
enough?
How about those chain mail store fronts like they have in New York?
it would certainly help the homeowners who won't abide by ridiculous
"rules" letting potential burglars cherry pick which garages to invade.

in any event someone will eventually sue the HOA for putting their lives
in danger and the unlawful illegal search and seizure of their property
i***@gmail.com
2018-01-10 23:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ZZyXX
Post by anim8rfsk
I just got a new garage door with windows in it. Would that be good
enough?
How about those chain mail store fronts like they have in New York?
it would certainly help the homeowners who won't abide by ridiculous
"rules" letting potential burglars cherry pick which garages to invade.
in any event someone will eventually sue the HOA for putting their lives
in danger and the unlawful illegal search and seizure of their property
I haven't paid much attention to this goofy thread but are they saying
some of the HOA members are letting illegal immigrants live in their garages?
And don't left wing Democrats give you an award for that?

Well it seems there are two simple solutions:

#1 Keep illegal immigrants in the garages and get the local chapter of left wing
Democrats to hold a rally, pool their money and pay the fines.

#2 The HOA needs to build a wall.

You're welcome.

Irish Mike
A Friend
2018-01-11 03:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
but are they saying some of the HOA members are letting illegal
immigrants live in their garages?
No, that's not what they're saying. Rest snipped.
RichA
2018-01-09 03:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, 8 January 2018 21:01:24 UTC-5, BTR1701 wrote:

Is there a lot of lead or mercury in CA water supplies?
ZZyXX
2018-01-09 20:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RichA
Is there a lot of lead or mercury in CA water supplies?
only where trump has spent any time
trotsky
2018-01-09 11:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
AUBURN, CA -- An Auburn community is upset after their homeowners
association told them they were required to keep their garage doors open
during the day.
A governing body overreaching? That never happens!
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-09 20:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them-to-leave-garage-doors-open/
This article is crap. No reason or details is given for the order.
It is entirely possible this is a temporary order for maintenance
reasons.
BTR1701
2018-01-09 21:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them-to-leave-garage-doors-open/
This article is crap. No reason or details is given for the order.
It is entirely possible this is a temporary order for maintenance
reasons.
The reason was that one of the residents was caught letting illegals live
in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must be left open
during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell if people are
living in garages.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-09 22:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them-to-leave-garage-doors-open/
This article is crap. No reason or details is given for the order.
It is entirely possible this is a temporary order for maintenance
reasons.
The reason was that one of the residents was caught letting illegals live
in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must be left open
during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell if people are
living in garages.
Where did it say that in the article? I checked again and didn't see it.
BTR1701
2018-01-10 03:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them-t
o-leave-garage-doors-open/
This article is crap. No reason or details is given for the order.
It is entirely possible this is a temporary order for maintenance
reasons.
The reason was that one of the residents was caught letting illegals live
in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must be left open
during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell if people are
living in garages.
Where did it say that in the article? I checked again and didn't see it.
Here you go.

http://www.nhregister.com/realestate/article/HOA-Makes-Homeowners-Leave-G
arage-Doors-Open-for-12485686.php
anim8rfsk
2018-01-10 06:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BTR1701
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them
-t
o-leave-garage-doors-open/
This article is crap. No reason or details is given for the order.
It is entirely possible this is a temporary order for maintenance
reasons.
The reason was that one of the residents was caught letting illegals live
in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must be left open
during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell if people are
living in garages.
Where did it say that in the article? I checked again and didn't see it.
Here you go.
http://www.nhregister.com/realestate/article/HOA-Makes-Homeowners-Leave-G
arage-Doors-Open-for-12485686.php
Thanks. Two notes:

RAT has been saying they were renting to illegals. The article just
says they were letting people illegally live there. So
A) we don't know that there was anything illegal about the garage people
than their occupancy, and
2) we don't know that they were renting space out

Okay, a third note. The article calls it illegal, but also says it's
because it's against HOA rules. Shirley this is a civil matter?
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
BTR1701
2018-01-10 06:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-th
em-to-leave-garage-doors-open/
This article is crap. No reason or details is given for the order.
It is entirely possible this is a temporary order for maintenance
reasons.
The reason was that one of the residents was caught letting illegals
live in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must
be left open during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell \
if people are living in garages.
Where did it say that in the article? I checked again and didn't see it.
Here you go.
http://www.nhregister.com/realestate/article/HOA-Makes-Homeowners-Leave-G
arage-Doors-Open-for-12485686.php
RAT has been saying they were renting to illegals. The article just
says they were letting people illegally live there.
That's what I meant. They're illegal per the HOA rules.
Post by anim8rfsk
The article calls it illegal, but also says it's because it's against
HOA rules. Shirley this is a civil matter?
Yeah, the other article also called the new rule a 'new law'. Seems to
be a case of morons who don't know what they're talking about.
Ed Stasiak
2018-01-10 20:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by RichA
BTR1701
anim8rfsk
RAT has been saying they were renting to illegals.  The article
just says they were letting people illegally live there.
That's what I meant. They're illegal per the HOA rules.
And probably illegal per the city’s zoning regulations due to not being
a “livable space”; you can’t put grandma in the attic just because she
fits up there...
Obveeus
2018-01-10 14:01:44 UTC
Permalink
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Post by anim8rfsk
Post by BTR1701
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them
-t
o-leave-garage-doors-open/
This article is crap. No reason or details is given for the order.
It is entirely possible this is a temporary order for maintenance
reasons.
The reason was that one of the residents was caught letting illegals live
in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must be left open
during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell if people are
living in garages.
Where did it say that in the article? I checked again and didn't see it.
Here you go.
http://www.nhregister.com/realestate/article/HOA-Makes-Homeowners-Leave-G
arage-Doors-Open-for-12485686.php
RAT has been saying they were renting to illegals. The article just
says they were letting people illegally live there. So
A) we don't know that there was anything illegal about the garage people
than their occupancy, and
2) we don't know that they were renting space out
Okay, a third note. The article calls it illegal, but also says it's
because it's against HOA rules. Shirley this is a civil matter?
Isn't everything with an HOA a civil matter?
anim8rfsk
2018-01-10 17:01:45 UTC
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Post by Obveeus
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by BTR1701
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them
-t
o-leave-garage-doors-open/
This article is crap. No reason or details is given for the order.
It is entirely possible this is a temporary order for maintenance
reasons.
The reason was that one of the residents was caught letting illegals live
in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must be left open
during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell if people are
living in garages.
Where did it say that in the article? I checked again and didn't see it.
Here you go.
http://www.nhregister.com/realestate/article/HOA-Makes-Homeowners-Leave-G
arage-Doors-Open-for-12485686.php
RAT has been saying they were renting to illegals. The article just
says they were letting people illegally live there. So
A) we don't know that there was anything illegal about the garage people
than their occupancy, and
2) we don't know that they were renting space out
Okay, a third note. The article calls it illegal, but also says it's
because it's against HOA rules. Shirley this is a civil matter?
Isn't everything with an HOA a civil matter?
You'd think, so how is it illegal?

If it actually *is* illegal you'd think the HOA would just call the cops.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
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Obveeus
2018-01-10 17:10:55 UTC
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Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Obveeus
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by BTR1701
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
http://fox40.com/2018/01/05/auburn-community-upset-after-hoa-tells-them
-t
o-leave-garage-doors-open/
This article is crap. No reason or details is given for the order.
It is entirely possible this is a temporary order for maintenance
reasons.
The reason was that one of the residents was caught letting illegals live
in his garage, so the HOA decreed that all garage doors must be left open
during daylight hours from now on so that they can tell if people are
living in garages.
Where did it say that in the article? I checked again and didn't see it.
Here you go.
http://www.nhregister.com/realestate/article/HOA-Makes-Homeowners-Leave-G
arage-Doors-Open-for-12485686.php
RAT has been saying they were renting to illegals. The article just
says they were letting people illegally live there. So
A) we don't know that there was anything illegal about the garage people
than their occupancy, and
2) we don't know that they were renting space out
Okay, a third note. The article calls it illegal, but also says it's
because it's against HOA rules. Shirley this is a civil matter?
Isn't everything with an HOA a civil matter?
You'd think, so how is it illegal?
If it actually *is* illegal you'd think the HOA would just call the cops.
Cops don't tend to enforce the single family residence laws. Even if you
can convince the city/county to issue a ticket/summons, it will take
months and months to play out in court.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-10 21:43:21 UTC
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Post by BTR1701
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Where did it say that in the article? I checked again and didn't see it.
Here you go.
http://www.nhregister.com/realestate/article/HOA-Makes-Homeowners-Leave-G
arage-Doors-Open-for-12485686.php
Why would a newspaper in Connecticut care about a trivial local issue
3,000 miles away in California?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

This reminds me of an HOA controversy over the American flag. A
homeowner put up a flag and the HOA told him to take it down. Big
outcry in the media, everyone thought the HOA was horrible--how dare
they restrict the American flag!!

But the media reported only half the story. The rest of the story
was this: The man lived in a multi-family dwelling. He put out
a flag so large that it blocked his neighbor's windows. The flag
was so large that it was not supported well, and people feared it
would fall on someone (and the HOA feared, quite justifiably, a
lawsuit). The HOA was willing to allow the man to put out a small
flag, but the man refused.

The issue went to court and the resident lost, even on appeal.
BTR1701
2018-01-10 22:52:13 UTC
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Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
Where did it say that in the article? I checked again and didn't see it.
Here you go.
http://www.nhregister.com/realestate/article/HOA-Makes-Homeowners-Leave-G
arage-Doors-Open-for-12485686.php
Why would a newspaper in Connecticut care about a trivial local issue
3,000 miles away in California?
They had some space to fill and saw this outrageous story on the AP news
feed and ran it, if I had to guess.

Our local news (both TV and print) frequently runs stories like that from
localities all over the country. Just last night the news here in CA ran a
story about a Louisiana teacher who got arrested for complaining about the
superintendent's pay raise at a school board meeting.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sorry, I don't buy it.
You don't buy what? That the New Haven Register ran the story? I gave you a
link to it. What more do I need to do to get you to believe it? Come slap
you in the head with the print copy of the newspaper?
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-11 19:38:38 UTC
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Post by BTR1701
Our local news (both TV and print) frequently runs stories like that from
localities all over the country. Just last night the news here in CA ran a
story about a Louisiana teacher who got arrested for complaining about the
superintendent's pay raise at a school board meeting.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sorry, I don't buy it.
You don't buy what? That the New Haven Register ran the story? I gave you a
link to it. What more do I need to do to get you to believe it? Come slap
you in the head with the print copy of the newspaper?
Your example of the Louisiana teacher proves my point.

I heard two different news reports about that teacher:

a) She was called on, and when she made her complaint about the
superintendent's salary increase, police immediately
hustled her from the room.

b) She did not have the floor, repeatedly interrupted the
proceedings, ignored requests to wait her turn, and eventually
the police were asked to remove her.

As you can see, we got two very distinct stories about the same
situation. That is journalism.

I already pointed out the condo resident displaying the U.S.
flag and how only half the story was reported.

So, I remain convinced we are not getting the full story.
BTR1701
2018-01-11 23:30:39 UTC
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Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
So, I remain convinced we are not getting the full story.
Why? Because you don't want to believe the story you got?
b***@gmail.com
2018-01-12 10:02:26 UTC
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Post by BTR1701
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
So, I remain convinced we are not getting the full story.
Why? Because you don't want to believe the story you got?
Posting several reports is more reliable than just one point-of-view.
BTR1701
2018-01-12 15:52:55 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by BTR1701
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
So, I remain convinced we are not getting the full story.
Why? Because you don't want to believe the story you got?
Posting several reports is more reliable than just one point-of-view.
More than one article *was* posted, you idiot.

You know, watching bruce2bowser try to participate in an adult
conversation is like watching a baby smoke a cigarette -- it's kind of
cool, but also very disturbing.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2018-01-13 20:24:39 UTC
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Post by BTR1701
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
So, I remain convinced we are not getting the full story.
Why? Because you don't want to believe the story you got?
Pot. Kettle. Black.

When we discussed the beer-deli Plexiglas issue, everyone jumped
on an erroneous wire story for their "facts". No one was interested
in more accurate reporting from a responsible local source.
BTR1701
2018-01-13 22:47:56 UTC
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Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by BTR1701
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
So, I remain convinced we are not getting the full story.
Why? Because you don't want to believe the story you got?
Pot. Kettle. Black.
When we discussed the beer-deli Plexiglas issue, everyone jumped
on an erroneous wire story for their "facts". No one was interested
in more accurate reporting from a responsible local source.
The "accurate reporting" didn't clear things up in that case. It only
made them make less sense.
A Friend
2018-01-10 22:58:18 UTC
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Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Why would a newspaper in Connecticut care about a trivial local issue
3,000 miles away in California?
It doesn't care at all. It was filler. The piece was supplied by
realtor.com, which does these for free. There are links to other such
stories at that URL.

I used to edit a local newspaper, too.
Travoltron
2018-01-12 16:19:26 UTC
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I never understood HOAs. Totally un-American concept. Totally alien to
me, too. Is it only in certain states? Only the upper class?
Ed Stasiak
2018-01-12 20:45:51 UTC
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Travoltron
I never understood HOAs. Totally un-American concept. Totally alien
to me, too. Is it only in certain states? Only the upper class?
I’m sure you have “gated communities” where you’re from and while
HOA aren’t found in lower class neighborhoods, it’s not just rich folks
who live there and I’d say most HOA are populated by middle class
people.

But there’s nothing un-American about like minded people getting
together to form their own community, it’s how the country was
founded but the nature of the system also means that power mad
juntas can take over and make it a pain in the ass for everybody,
as can be seen in the OP.
moviePig
2018-01-12 22:11:47 UTC
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Post by Ed Stasiak
Travoltron
I never understood HOAs. Totally un-American concept. Totally alien
to me, too. Is it only in certain states? Only the upper class?
I’m sure you have “gated communities” where you’re from and while
HOA aren’t found in lower class neighborhoods, it’s not just rich folks
who live there and I’d say most HOA are populated by middle class
people.
But there’s nothing un-American about like minded people getting
together to form their own community, it’s how the country was
founded but the nature of the system also means that power mad
juntas can take over and make it a pain in the ass for everybody,
as can be seen in the OP.
"Like minded people getting together to form their own community" sounds
an awful lot like it shelters unequal housing opportunity-- which *is*
officially un-American.
--
- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com
Ed Stasiak
2018-01-12 22:42:35 UTC
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moviePig
Ed Stasiak
But there’s nothing un-American about like minded people getting
together to form their own community, it’s how the country was
founded but the nature of the system also means that power mad
juntas can take over and make it a pain in the ass for everybody,
as can be seen in the OP.
Like minded people getting together to form their own community" sounds
an awful lot like it shelters unequal housing opportunity-- which *is* officially
un-American.
Everybody on the planet is subject to “unequal housing”, I sure as hell don’t
have a house as nice as Al Gore’s.

Loading Image...
moviePig
2018-01-12 23:22:57 UTC
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Post by Ed Stasiak
moviePig
Ed Stasiak
But there’s nothing un-American about like minded people getting
together to form their own community, it’s how the country was
founded but the nature of the system also means that power mad
juntas can take over and make it a pain in the ass for everybody,
as can be seen in the OP.
Like minded people getting together to form their own community" sounds
an awful lot like it shelters unequal housing opportunity-- which *is* officially
un-American.
Everybody on the planet is subject to “unequal housing”, I sure as hell don’t
have a house as nice as Al Gore’s.
http://c2.vgtstatic.com/thumbll/1/6/16965-v2-xl/al-gores-house.jpg
But if he tries to sell you his, there are limits to what he can ask
about how 'like minded' you are.
--
- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com
Ed Stasiak
2018-01-13 01:41:31 UTC
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moviePig
Ed Stasiak
Everybody on the planet is subject to “unequal housing”, I sure
as hell don’t have a house as nice as Al Gore’s.
But if he tries to sell you his, there are limits to what he can ask
about how 'like minded' you are.
Sure, and this applies to all HOA; they can’t for instance ban Blacks
and Jews from buying in but they can mandate the lawn to be cut and
snow shoveled, something that annoyingly doesn’t happen at a few
houses in my non-HOA neighborhood.

Still, I’d never buy into a HOA neighborhood but I don’t have a problem
with people who do want that kinda thing.
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