Discussion:
Black guy got choked. Why the F--- don't they just OBEY THE F------ LAW??
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RichA
2019-08-02 23:16:53 UTC
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-03 21:52:17 UTC
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Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.

Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
danny burstein
2019-08-03 22:07:16 UTC
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Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
You're overcomplicating things in your response to R***A and
giving him and his sock puppets cover.

It's quite simple:

If some action you (in this case, officer Pantaleo) are
taking that's causing someone to scream out that you're
killing him, then unless you've got a damn good reason
to continue that specific ation, you pretty well should
be stopping and rethinking what you're doing.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
***@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-03 22:59:13 UTC
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Post by danny burstein
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
You're overcomplicating things in your response to R***A and
giving him and his sock puppets cover.
If some action you (in this case, officer Pantaleo) are
taking that's causing someone to scream out that you're
killing him, then unless you've got a damn good reason
to continue that specific ation, you pretty well should
be stopping and rethinking what you're doing.
I'm not disagreeing that the police officer acted in callous disregard
for the arrestee's life.

But Rich made a comment on obeying the law.
RichA
2019-08-04 18:39:15 UTC
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Post by danny burstein
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
You're overcomplicating things in your response to R***A and
giving him and his sock puppets cover.
If some action you (in this case, officer Pantaleo) are
taking that's causing someone to scream out that you're
killing him, then unless you've got a damn good reason
to continue that specific ation, you pretty well should
be stopping and rethinking what you're doing.
Stupid liberal.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-04 18:44:28 UTC
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Permalink
Post by RichA
Post by danny burstein
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
You're overcomplicating things in your response to R***A and
giving him and his sock puppets cover.
If some action you (in this case, officer Pantaleo) are
taking that's causing someone to scream out that you're
killing him, then unless you've got a damn good reason
to continue that specific ation, you pretty well should
be stopping and rethinking what you're doing.
Stupid liberal.
Knock it the fuck off, Rich. It was also the finding at autopsy.
Rhino
2019-08-04 01:35:07 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
--
Rhino
EGK
2019-08-04 02:56:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
Alan Smithee
2019-08-04 09:58:21 UTC
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Permalink
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his "racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
Or, if he had shot the cop like the Latins do in Cali.
EGK
2019-08-04 15:34:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan Smithee
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his "racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
Or, if he had shot the cop like the Latins do in Cali.
Which, of course, is one reason the police often end up using excessive
force. Cops get scared too. They have no idea who is going to take a shot
at them. It's why they often go in with guns drawn.


FPP
2019-08-04 12:42:49 UTC
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Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
Yeah, he was just looking for it. Just standing there being all black
and all.
--
Trump: "I'm rich." (* but you can't see my taxes.)
"I'm smart." (* but you can't see my grades.)
"I'm totally exonerated." (* but you can't see the report.)
FPP
2019-08-04 12:59:37 UTC
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Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force.   On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be
handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals.   Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
Choked to death by the government for a misdemeanor. Totally justified.
In North Korea.
Ed Stasiak
2019-08-04 13:37:57 UTC
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Post by FPP
FPP
Post by EGK
EGK
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals.
Garner would still be alive if he had cooperated.
Choked to death by the government for a misdemeanor.
No, he died because he chose to get into a fight with police, (a felony) an all too
common behavior with Black people and died because he was fat, (350lbs) had
asthma and heart disease, also common among Black people.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner

Garner had been arrested by the NYPD more than thirty times since 1980 on charges
such as assault, resisting arrest, and grand larceny

At the time of the incident, he was out on bail for selling untaxed cigarettes, driving
without a license, marijuana possession, and false impersonation.

On August 1, Garner's death was found by the New York City Medical Examiner's
Office to be a result of "compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and
prone positioning during physical restraint by police". Asthma, heart disease, and
obesity were cited as contributing factors. There was no damage to the trachea
(windpipe) or neckbones
Rhino
2019-08-05 13:53:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 21:35:07 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force.   On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be
handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals.
Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
Choked to death by the government for a misdemeanor.  Totally justified.
In North Korea.
He only had to surrender peacefully and no one would have hurt him. He'd
have gotten a fine or a few days in jail and then could have gotten back
to his life.
--
Rhino
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-05 16:21:55 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the
whole package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be
handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals.
Garner would still be alive if he had cooperated.
Choked to death by the government for a misdemeanor. Totally justified.
In North Korea.
He only had to surrender peacefully and no one would have hurt him. He'd
have gotten a fine or a few days in jail and then could have gotten back
to his life.
What did you see on the video that required him to be handcuffed and
wrestled to the ground? If there was any evidence favorable to the
police, the city wouldn't have settled for a huge payout to his greedy
relatives. All the police had to do was write a citation.
Ed Stasiak
2019-08-05 18:37:44 UTC
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Permalink
Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Rhino
He only had to surrender peacefully and no one would have hurt him. He'd
have gotten a fine or a few days in jail and then could have gotten back
to his life.
What did you see on the video that required him to be handcuffed and
wrestled to the ground?
The part where he tells the cops he ain’t gonna be arrested then starts retreating
and wildly flailing about when they try to arrest him. What video did you watch?

Again I’ll ask; are the cops supposed to just let him go?
All the police had to do was write a citation.
This is more than a ticketable offense, he has to be arrested and taken down
to the station for processing and tossed in a cell until he makes bail.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-04 15:56:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant. All
that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground and said so
multiple times. At that point, he should have been sat up.

It's a tax law violation. Why the fuck did the cops have to confront him
in the first place? Is anyone going to say that such a law should not be
on the books to begin with?
EGK
2019-08-04 16:24:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant. All
that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground and said so
multiple times. At that point, he should have been sat up.
It's a tax law violation. Why the fuck did the cops have to confront him
in the first place? Is anyone going to say that such a law should not be
on the books to begin with?
I agree and that's why I said it was obvious the cop used excessive force. I
personally think Pantaleo should have been fired and brought up on charges
but I don't know that he would have been convicted. Garner could have
saved himself by not resisting arrest and his obesity and other health
problems did contribute to his death..

Garner had a laundry list of crimes. 30 arrests in 34 years including for
assault. He was out on bail when he died. These cops were told to crack
down on petty crime. Probably because store owners in the area complained.
This was sadly predictable.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-04 18:43:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant. All
that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground and said so
multiple times. At that point, he should have been sat up.
It's a tax law violation. Why the fuck did the cops have to confront him
in the first place? Is anyone going to say that such a law should not be
on the books to begin with?
I agree and that's why I said it was obvious the cop used excessive force. I
personally think Pantaleo should have been fired and brought up on charges
but I don't know that he would have been convicted.
Daniel Pantaleo wasn't indicted by a grand jury. The coroner's verdict
was death due to compression of Garner's neck.

One of the articles said Garner was refusing service of a summons. Was
he being served by cops or a city license department worker in a
separate incident? All that should have happened was being served a
summons for unlicensed business or something.
Post by EGK
Garner could have
saved himself by not resisting arrest and his obesity and other health
problems did contribute to his death..
Garner had a laundry list of crimes. 30 arrests in 34 years including for
assault. He was out on bail when he died. These cops were told to crack
down on petty crime. Probably because store owners in the area complained.
This was sadly predictable.
anim8rfsk
2019-08-04 19:04:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant. All
that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground and said so
multiple times. At that point, he should have been sat up.
It's a tax law violation. Why the fuck did the cops have to confront him
in the first place? Is anyone going to say that such a law should not be
on the books to begin with?
I agree and that's why I said it was obvious the cop used excessive force. I
personally think Pantaleo should have been fired and brought up on charges
but I don't know that he would have been convicted.
Daniel Pantaleo wasn't indicted by a grand jury. The coroner's verdict
was death due to compression of Garner's neck.
I don't think that was a coroner verdict. That was an independent retired ME
they shopped for.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
One of the articles said Garner was refusing service of a summons. Was
he being served by cops or a city license department worker in a
separate incident? All that should have happened was being served a
summons for unlicensed business or something.
Apparently he was involved in a fight. The guy who shot the video says Garner
tried to break up the fight and the fighters fled. Cops show up for that.
Presumably they knew or found out who he was and his record.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Garner could have
saved himself by not resisting arrest and his obesity and other health
problems did contribute to his death..
Garner had a laundry list of crimes. 30 arrests in 34 years including for
assault. He was out on bail when he died. These cops were told to crack
down on petty crime. Probably because store owners in the area complained.
This was sadly predictable.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
anim8rfsk
2019-08-04 19:27:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the
whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant. All
that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground and said so
multiple times. At that point, he should have been sat up.
It's a tax law violation. Why the fuck did the cops have to confront him
in the first place? Is anyone going to say that such a law should not be
on the books to begin with?
I agree and that's why I said it was obvious the cop used excessive force. I
personally think Pantaleo should have been fired and brought up on charges
but I don't know that he would have been convicted.
Daniel Pantaleo wasn't indicted by a grand jury. The coroner's verdict
was death due to compression of Garner's neck.
I don't think that was a coroner verdict. That was an independent retired ME
they shopped for.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
One of the articles said Garner was refusing service of a summons. Was
he being served by cops or a city license department worker in a
separate incident? All that should have happened was being served a
summons for unlicensed business or something.
Apparently he was involved in a fight. The guy who shot the video says Garner
tried to break up the fight and the fighters fled. Cops show up for that.
Presumably they knew or found out who he was and his record.
Scratch the presumably. The accused cop's partner says they knew.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-04 21:01:59 UTC
Reply
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Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on
the books
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax
stamp? Note
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon
buying the whole
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a
black cop had
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that
would REALLY
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be
handcuffed.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant. All
that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground and said so
multiple times. At that point, he should have been sat up.
It's a tax law violation. Why the fuck did the cops have to confront him
in the first place? Is anyone going to say that such a law should not be
on the books to begin with?
I agree and that's why I said it was obvious the cop used excessive force. I
personally think Pantaleo should have been fired and brought up on charges
but I don't know that he would have been convicted.
Daniel Pantaleo wasn't indicted by a grand jury. The coroner's verdict
was death due to compression of Garner's neck.
I don't think that was a coroner verdict. That was an independent retired ME
they shopped for.
That guy concluded "illegal choke hold", a conclusion that doesn't sound
supportable; the first guy just concluded "compression".
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Adam H. Kerman
One of the articles said Garner was refusing service of a summons. Was
he being served by cops or a city license department worker in a
separate incident? All that should have happened was being served a
summons for unlicensed business or something.
Apparently he was involved in a fight. The guy who shot the video says Garner
tried to break up the fight and the fighters fled. Cops show up for that.
Presumably they knew or found out who he was and his record.
I didn't know that bit; thanks.
anim8rfsk
2019-08-04 22:10:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on
the books
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax
stamp? Note
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon
buying the whole
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a
black cop had
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that
would REALLY
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be
handcuffed.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant. All
that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground and said so
multiple times. At that point, he should have been sat up.
It's a tax law violation. Why the fuck did the cops have to confront him
in the first place? Is anyone going to say that such a law should not be
on the books to begin with?
I agree and that's why I said it was obvious the cop used excessive force. I
personally think Pantaleo should have been fired and brought up on charges
but I don't know that he would have been convicted.
Daniel Pantaleo wasn't indicted by a grand jury. The coroner's verdict
was death due to compression of Garner's neck.
I don't think that was a coroner verdict. That was an independent retired ME
they shopped for.
That guy concluded "illegal choke hold", a conclusion that doesn't sound
supportable; the first guy just concluded "compression".
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Adam H. Kerman
One of the articles said Garner was refusing service of a summons. Was
he being served by cops or a city license department worker in a
separate incident? All that should have happened was being served a
summons for unlicensed business or something.
Apparently he was involved in a fight. The guy who shot the video says Garner
tried to break up the fight and the fighters fled. Cops show up for that.
Presumably they knew or found out who he was and his record.
I didn't know that bit; thanks.
NP
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
FPP
2019-08-04 20:32:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by EGK
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant. All
that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground and said so
multiple times. At that point, he should have been sat up.
It's a tax law violation. Why the fuck did the cops have to confront him
in the first place? Is anyone going to say that such a law should not be
on the books to begin with?
I agree and that's why I said it was obvious the cop used excessive force. I
personally think Pantaleo should have been fired and brought up on charges
but I don't know that he would have been convicted. Garner could have
saved himself by not resisting arrest and his obesity and other health
problems did contribute to his death..
Garner had a laundry list of crimes. 30 arrests in 34 years including for
assault. He was out on bail when he died. These cops were told to crack
down on petty crime. Probably because store owners in the area complained.
This was sadly predictable.
Well, murdering citizens in the street certainly works as a deterrent,
doesn't it?
Too bad there wasn't a cop around to protect Garner.
--
Trump: "I'm rich." (* but you can't see my taxes.)
"I'm smart." (* but you can't see my grades.)
"I'm totally exonerated." (* but you can't see the report.)
The Horny Goat
2019-08-05 01:16:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by FPP
Post by EGK
Garner had a laundry list of crimes. 30 arrests in 34 years including for
assault. He was out on bail when he died. These cops were told to crack
down on petty crime. Probably because store owners in the area complained.
This was sadly predictable.
Well, murdering citizens in the street certainly works as a deterrent,
doesn't it?
Too bad there wasn't a cop around to protect Garner.
So you're suggesting the cop grabbed him with intent to kill?

Because that's what it would have to be to be rightfully called
murder.
moviePig
2019-08-05 03:22:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by FPP
Post by EGK
Garner had a laundry list of crimes. 30 arrests in 34 years including for
assault. He was out on bail when he died. These cops were told to crack
down on petty crime. Probably because store owners in the area complained.
This was sadly predictable.
Well, murdering citizens in the street certainly works as a deterrent,
doesn't it?
Too bad there wasn't a cop around to protect Garner.
So you're suggesting the cop grabbed him with intent to kill?
Because that's what it would have to be to be rightfully called
murder.
Afaics, a prosecution for murder would have to argue reckless disregard
for life. A hangin' judge might buy it...
--
- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com
BTR1701
2019-08-05 07:02:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by FPP
Post by EGK
Garner had a laundry list of crimes. 30 arrests in 34 years including for
assault. He was out on bail when he died. These cops were told to crack
down on petty crime. Probably because store owners in the area complained.
This was sadly predictable.
Well, murdering citizens in the street certainly works as a deterrent,
doesn't it?
Too bad there wasn't a cop around to protect Garner.
So you're suggesting the cop grabbed him with intent to kill?
Because that's what it would have to be to be rightfully called
murder.
Afaics, a prosecution for murder would have to argue reckless disregard
for life.
No, that's manslaughter.

Murder requires specific intent to kill. To convict that cop for murder the
prosecution would have to show the cop intended to kill Garner when he put
him in that hold, something that it would be exceedingly difficult to do
beyond a reasonable doubt absent the cop shouting something like, "I'll
kill you, motherfucker!" while doing it.
trotsky
2019-08-05 10:43:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by FPP
Post by EGK
Garner had a laundry list of crimes. 30 arrests in 34 years including for
assault. He was out on bail when he died. These cops were told to crack
down on petty crime. Probably because store owners in the area complained.
This was sadly predictable.
Well, murdering citizens in the street certainly works as a deterrent,
doesn't it?
Too bad there wasn't a cop around to protect Garner.
So you're suggesting the cop grabbed him with intent to kill?
Because that's what it would have to be to be rightfully called
murder.
Afaics, a prosecution for murder would have to argue reckless disregard
for life.
No, that's manslaughter.
Murder requires specific intent to kill. To convict that cop for murder the
prosecution would have to show the cop intended to kill Garner when he put
him in that hold, something that it would be exceedingly difficult to do
beyond a reasonable doubt absent the cop shouting something like, "I'll
kill you, motherfucker!" while doing it.
Yeah, that's a horseshit example. A better example would be the cop
that was actually convicted in Chicago for shooting Laquan McDonald 16
times in the back. Apparently there's a certain number of bullets that
establishes intent and "I goofed!" just doesn't work any more.
moviePig
2019-08-05 13:02:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by FPP
Post by EGK
Garner had a laundry list of crimes. 30 arrests in 34 years including for
assault. He was out on bail when he died. These cops were told to crack
down on petty crime. Probably because store owners in the area complained.
This was sadly predictable.
Well, murdering citizens in the street certainly works as a deterrent,
doesn't it?
Too bad there wasn't a cop around to protect Garner.
So you're suggesting the cop grabbed him with intent to kill?
Because that's what it would have to be to be rightfully called
murder.
Afaics, a prosecution for murder would have to argue reckless disregard
for life.
No, that's manslaughter.
Murder requires specific intent to kill. To convict that cop for murder the
prosecution would have to show the cop intended to kill Garner when he put
him in that hold, something that it would be exceedingly difficult to do
beyond a reasonable doubt absent the cop shouting something like, "I'll
kill you, motherfucker!" while doing it.
"Manslaughter is an unlawful killing that doesn't involve malice
aforethought -- intent to seriously harm or kill, or extreme, reckless
disregard for life."

Moreover, that proviso seems to make sense, by disallowing manslaughter
when I claim it because "I was only aiming at his sternum".
--
- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-05 16:28:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by EGK
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by FPP
Post by EGK
Garner had a laundry list of crimes. 30 arrests in 34 years including for
assault. He was out on bail when he died. These cops were
told to crack
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by FPP
Post by EGK
down on petty crime. Probably because store owners in the area
complained.
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by FPP
Post by EGK
This was sadly predictable.
Well, murdering citizens in the street certainly works as a deterrent,
doesn't it?
Too bad there wasn't a cop around to protect Garner.
So you're suggesting the cop grabbed him with intent to kill?
Because that's what it would have to be to be rightfully called
murder.
Afaics, a prosecution for murder would have to argue reckless disregard
for life.
No, that's manslaughter.
Murder requires specific intent to kill. To convict that cop for murder the
prosecution would have to show the cop intended to kill Garner when he put
him in that hold, something that it would be exceedingly difficult to do
beyond a reasonable doubt absent the cop shouting something like, "I'll
kill you, motherfucker!" while doing it.
"Manslaughter is an unlawful killing that doesn't involve malice
aforethought -- intent to seriously harm or kill, or extreme, reckless
disregard for life."
I have no idea what you're quoting, you stupid fuckhead, but it doesn't
parse too well. Homicide as a result of a criminally reckless act is
indeed manslaughter. You don't have to prove that the criminal intended to
kill. You just have to prove that the act that lead to dead was criminally
reckless. Homicide from a collision in which the driver was drunk is a
common example of a criminally reckless act.
Post by EGK
Moreover, that proviso seems to make sense, by disallowing manslaughter
when I claim it because "I was only aiming at his sternum".
I have no doubt that your very own words would lead to your conviction.
FPP
2019-08-05 05:25:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by FPP
Post by EGK
Garner had a laundry list of crimes. 30 arrests in 34 years including for
assault. He was out on bail when he died. These cops were told to crack
down on petty crime. Probably because store owners in the area complained.
This was sadly predictable.
Well, murdering citizens in the street certainly works as a deterrent,
doesn't it?
Too bad there wasn't a cop around to protect Garner.
So you're suggesting the cop grabbed him with intent to kill?
Because that's what it would have to be to be rightfully called
murder.
Did you watch the video of the incident?

When a man uses an illegal choke hold, and the victim says "I can't
breathe." ELEVEN TIMES, and then stops breathing and dies - what DO you
call it?

Watch the video, if you can, and tell me this wasn't a crime.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/dec/04/i-cant-breathe-eric-garner-chokehold-death-video

If you haven't watched it, you CAN'T talk about it... it's as simple as
that.
--
Trump: "I'm rich." (* but you can't see my taxes.)
"I'm smart." (* but you can't see my grades.)
"I'm totally exonerated." (* but you can't see the report.)
Rhino
2019-08-05 13:59:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by FPP
Post by FPP
Garner had a laundry list of crimes.  30 arrests in 34 years
including for
assault.   He was out on bail when he died.    These cops were told
to crack
down on petty crime.  Probably because store owners in the area
complained.
This was sadly predictable.
Well, murdering citizens in the street certainly works as a deterrent,
doesn't it?
Too bad there wasn't a cop around to protect Garner.
So  you're suggesting the cop grabbed him with intent to kill?
Because that's what it would have to be to be rightfully called
murder.
Did you watch the video of the incident?
When a man uses an illegal choke hold, and the victim says "I can't
breathe." ELEVEN TIMES, and then stops breathing and dies - what DO you
call it?
Watch the video, if you can, and tell me this wasn't a crime.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/dec/04/i-cant-breathe-eric-garner-chokehold-death-video
If you haven't watched it, you CAN'T talk about it... it's as simple as
that.
Speaking of simple, it's a simple fact that you can't TALK when you
can't breathe. The mere fact that he was able to voice the words "I
can't breathe" proves that he CAN breathe.
--
Rhino
shawn
2019-08-05 14:11:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 09:59:16 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by FPP
Post by FPP
Garner had a laundry list of crimes.  30 arrests in 34 years
including for
assault.   He was out on bail when he died.    These cops were told
to crack
down on petty crime.  Probably because store owners in the area
complained.
This was sadly predictable.
Well, murdering citizens in the street certainly works as a deterrent,
doesn't it?
Too bad there wasn't a cop around to protect Garner.
So  you're suggesting the cop grabbed him with intent to kill?
Because that's what it would have to be to be rightfully called
murder.
Did you watch the video of the incident?
When a man uses an illegal choke hold, and the victim says "I can't
breathe." ELEVEN TIMES, and then stops breathing and dies - what DO you
call it?
Watch the video, if you can, and tell me this wasn't a crime.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/dec/04/i-cant-breathe-eric-garner-chokehold-death-video
If you haven't watched it, you CAN'T talk about it... it's as simple as
that.
Speaking of simple, it's a simple fact that you can't TALK when you
can't breathe. The mere fact that he was able to voice the words "I
can't breathe" proves that he CAN breathe.
You've never seen someone suffering from an asthma attack making that
same claim that "I can't breathe"? It's simply a case that they can't
catch their breath and are having difficulties that can lead to death
if not corrected. It doesn't mean they could catch enough air to make
a quick call out about their difficulty.

Besides, if all that could have resulted from this 'crime' was a fine
then the cop's action really do seem to be uncalled for.
Ed Stasiak
2019-08-05 15:04:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by shawn
shawn
Besides, if all that could have resulted from this 'crime' was a fine
That Garner was out on bail for the last time he got busted for selling
stollen smokes means this isn’t something that simply results in a ticket,
he has to be arrested, cuffed, put in the cruiser, taken to the police station,
processed, tossed in a cell, bailed out and face a hearing before a judge.
Post by shawn
then the cop's action really do seem to be uncalled for.
What are the cops supposed to do when someone says “fuck you, I ain’t
getting arrested!”, just let them walk away?

Does this also apply to other ethnic groups or are only Black people allowed
to commit crimes and then ignore the police?
anim8rfsk
2019-08-05 16:23:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Black guy got choked. Why the F--- don't they just OBEY THE F------ LAW??
August 5, 2019 at 8:04:02 AM MST
Post by shawn
shawn
Besides, if all that could have resulted from this 'crime' was a fine
That Garner was out on bail for the last time he got busted for selling
stollen smokes means this isn’t something that simply results in a ticket,
he has to be arrested, cuffed, put in the cruiser, taken to the police station,
processed, tossed in a cell, bailed out and face a hearing before a judge.
Post by shawn
then the cop's action really do seem to be uncalled for.
What are the cops supposed to do when someone says “fuck you, I ain’t
getting arrested!”, just let them walk away?
A lot of (deeply stupid) people think that. I can remember the hippy dippy
chicks in high school insisting that cops should never chase anybody, either.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
shawn
2019-08-05 17:45:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Black guy got choked. Why the F--- don't they just OBEY THE F------ LAW??
August 5, 2019 at 8:04:02 AM MST
Post by shawn
shawn
Besides, if all that could have resulted from this 'crime' was a fine
That Garner was out on bail for the last time he got busted for selling
stollen smokes means this isn’t something that simply results in a ticket,
he has to be arrested, cuffed, put in the cruiser, taken to the police station,
processed, tossed in a cell, bailed out and face a hearing before a judge.
Post by shawn
then the cop's action really do seem to be uncalled for.
What are the cops supposed to do when someone says “fuck you, I ain’t
getting arrested!”, just let them walk away?
A lot of (deeply stupid) people think that. I can remember the hippy dippy
chicks in high school insisting that cops should never chase anybody, either.
To be honest, some of the cops around here should not be chasing
anyone. Otherwise the cops may keel over with a heart attack. Hell,
that could be especially true in your area, Anim. Unless you happen to
have only cops in good physical shape.
anim8rfsk
2019-08-05 18:33:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by shawn
Post by anim8rfsk
Black guy got choked. Why the F--- don't they just OBEY THE F------ LAW??
August 5, 2019 at 8:04:02 AM MST
Post by shawn
shawn
Besides, if all that could have resulted from this 'crime' was a fine
That Garner was out on bail for the last time he got busted for selling
stollen smokes means this isn’t something that simply results in a ticket,
he has to be arrested, cuffed, put in the cruiser, taken to the police station,
processed, tossed in a cell, bailed out and face a hearing before a judge.
Post by shawn
then the cop's action really do seem to be uncalled for.
What are the cops supposed to do when someone says “fuck you, I ain’t
getting arrested!”, just let them walk away?
A lot of (deeply stupid) people think that. I can remember the hippy dippy
chicks in high school insisting that cops should never chase anybody, either.
To be honest, some of the cops around here should not be chasing
anyone. Otherwise the cops may keel over with a heart attack. Hell,
that could be especially true in your area, Anim. Unless you happen to
have only cops in good physical shape.
Scottsdale cops are awesome. Young, fit, the lady cops are hot (I've
mentioned before that a Scottsdale CSI officer came to my house who was a
dead ringer for Calleigh in CSI Horatio (right down to the Southern accent)
except she was like 5'9"). It's like they came from central casting. They
also are polite and efficient and I wouldn't mess with one of 'em for a
minute. I've never seen a beer belly amongst them.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
anim8rfsk
2019-08-04 18:05:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant. All
that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground and said so
multiple times. At that point, he should have been sat up.
It's a tax law violation. Why the fuck did the cops have to confront him
in the first place? Is anyone going to say that such a law should not be
on the books to begin with?
here's an mostly biased for Garner wiki entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner

"Garner had been arrested by the NYPD more than thirty times since 1980 on
charges such as assault, resisting arrest, and grand larceny.
many of these arrests had been for allegedly selling unlicensed cigarettes
At the time of the incident, he was out on bail for selling untaxed
cigarettes, driving without a license, marijuana possession, and false
impersonation."



The photographer/witness went to jail for weapons charges and after
complaining the cops tried to murder him in jail, is now in prison for drug
and weapons charges.

"Officers confronted Garner and accused him of selling "loosies
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loosie)" (single cigarettes without a tax
stamp) in violation of New York state law."

How the Hell much can you sell a single cigarette for?

Al Sharpton rabbled roused everything into a frenzy.

"An ME said the 'neck compression' exacerbated Garner's asthma, heart
disease, and obesity. But there "was no damage to thetrachea or neckbones""
They didn't like the official ME's results so they kept shopping for other
MEs apparently to appease Sharpton.

It was sent to a grand jury who decided not to indict.

Protesters" started AMBUSHING AND MURDERING POLICE OFFICERS.

Garner's family threatened police. His 27 year old daughter dropped dead of a
heart attack herself.

Obama rabble roused.

Family gets paid off; just under $6m.

Not liking the grand jury exoneration of the cops, the DoJ steps in. FBI and
Feds say there should be no charges.

Obama's new Attorney General removes everybody on the case and brings in NEW
investigators.

THEY find that the cops should not face Federal charges.

Finally, five years later, they get a cherry picked ME to claim that the
'chokehold' caused the asthma attack. Said ME concedes "that even "a bear
hug" could have had the same effect as the chokehold, given that Garner
weighed 395 pounds, suffered from asthma and diabetes, and had a heart twice
the size of a healthy person's heart."

Internal Affairs wants the cop fired anyway. Finally they get an apparently
unnamed (which is weird) "New York City police department administrative
judge" who had been in charge of aspects of the case to recommend firing.

"New York City Patrolmen's Benevolent Association president Patrick Lynch
blasted the judge's recommendation as "pure political insanity." He said the
judge "ignored evidence and trampled P.O. Pantaleo's due process rights in
order to deliver the results that the grandstanding politicians and
protesters demand."

He said if O'Neill upholds the decision, it will send a message to city
officers that they are "expendable.""

BTW Garner had 100 loose cigarettes on him at the time, and had just been
involved in a fight, which is what the cops were initially called for.

CBS says all this happened on Staten Island, which we know from Law& Order
is where they send disciplined cops who then complain endlessly 'cause
there's no crime to fight out there (I've never understood that either).

My big takeaway is that apparently NYC (or, I guess, Staten Island) cops are
grotesquely overweight.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Ed Stasiak
2019-08-04 18:39:53 UTC
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anim8rfsk
How the Hell much can you sell a single cigarette for?
Years back I worked at a shop where one of the supervisors
was trying to quit (I.e. his wife gave him shit about smoking)
and he’d buy a cigarette or three off me everyday for $0.25
each.

I don’t remember what I was paying for them back then but
I just bought a carton of smokes the other day for $67.83
(and I’m sure they cost more in NYC) and that works out to
$0.34 each.
He said if O'Neill upholds the decision, it will send a message
to city officers that they are "expendable.""
Honestly if I was a cop nowadays, unless it was a murder or
something similarly serious, I wouldn’t even bother arresting
any Black person. I’m not going to lose my job and pension
and maybe end up in prison because of “Lawsuit Lotto”.

Fuck it, let them run around committing all kinda crimes and
the people can vote the mayor out in the next election when
the crime rate goes thru the roof.
danny burstein
2019-08-04 18:50:53 UTC
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Post by Ed Stasiak
Honestly if I was a cop nowadays, unless it was a murder or
something similarly serious, I wouldn't even bother arresting
any Black person. Im not going to lose my job and pension
and maybe end up in prison because of "Lawsuit Lotto".
Good. The police forces would be a hell of a lot better
if folk like you stayed out.
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anim8rfsk
2019-08-04 19:01:07 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ed Stasiak
anim8rfsk
How the Hell much can you sell a single cigarette for?
Years back I worked at a shop where one of the supervisors
was trying to quit (I.e. his wife gave him shit about smoking)
and he’d buy a cigarette or three off me everyday for $0.25
each.
I don’t remember what I was paying for them back then but
I just bought a carton of smokes the other day for $67.83
(and I’m sure they cost more in NYC) and that works out to
$0.34 each.
Okay, it took some digging, but I find that a loose cigarette in NYC goes for
75¢ or 2 for a dollar.
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Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-04 18:48:45 UTC
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Post by Ed Stasiak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner
. . .
Obama's new Attorney General removes everybody on the case and brings in NEW
investigators.
THEY find that the cops should not face Federal charges.
This is no surprise. It's a really high bar. These things are supposed
to be charged under state law.
Post by Ed Stasiak
Finally, five years later, they get a cherry picked ME to claim that the
'chokehold' caused the asthma attack. Said ME concedes "that even "a bear
hug" could have had the same effect as the chokehold, given that Garner
weighed 395 pounds, suffered from asthma and diabetes, and had a heart twice
the size of a healthy person's heart." . . .
So? Sit the guy up at that point. It's not like he's going to sprint
anywhere and make them chase him.
Post by Ed Stasiak
My big takeaway is that apparently NYC (or, I guess, Staten Island) cops are
grotesquely overweight.
Haha
anim8rfsk
2019-08-04 19:06:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Ed Stasiak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner
. . .
Obama's new Attorney General removes everybody on the case and brings in NEW
investigators.
THEY find that the cops should not face Federal charges.
This is no surprise. It's a really high bar. These things are supposed
to be charged under state law.
Post by Ed Stasiak
Finally, five years later, they get a cherry picked ME to claim that the
'chokehold' caused the asthma attack. Said ME concedes "that even "a bear
hug" could have had the same effect as the chokehold, given that Garner
weighed 395 pounds, suffered from asthma and diabetes, and had a heart twice
the size of a healthy person's heart." . . .
So? Sit the guy up at that point. It's not like he's going to sprint
anywhere and make them chase him.
I don't disagree, but it doesn't sound like it would have helped.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Ed Stasiak
My big takeaway is that apparently NYC (or, I guess, Staten Island) cops are
grotesquely overweight.
Haha
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Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-04 21:03:49 UTC
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Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Ed Stasiak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner
. . .
Obama's new Attorney General removes everybody on the case and brings in NEW
investigators.
THEY find that the cops should not face Federal charges.
This is no surprise. It's a really high bar. These things are supposed
to be charged under state law.
Post by Ed Stasiak
Finally, five years later, they get a cherry picked ME to claim that the
'chokehold' caused the asthma attack. Said ME concedes "that even "a bear
hug" could have had the same effect as the chokehold, given that Garner
weighed 395 pounds, suffered from asthma and diabetes, and had a heart twice
the size of a healthy person's heart." . . .
So? Sit the guy up at that point. It's not like he's going to sprint
anywhere and make them chase him.
I don't disagree, but it doesn't sound like it would have helped.
If the arresting officer had shown any compassion, the city wouldn't have
written an enormous check to the greedy relatives, none of whom I'm sure
gave a shit about Garner whilst he was alive.
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Ed Stasiak
My big takeaway is that apparently NYC (or, I guess, Staten Island) cops are
grotesquely overweight.
Haha
Ed Stasiak
2019-08-04 21:28:23 UTC
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Permalink
Adam H. Kerman
If the arresting officer had shown any compassion, the city wouldn't have
written an enormous check to the greedy relatives, none of whom I'm sure
gave a shit about Garner whilst he was alive.
If Eric Garner had behave in a civilized manner, the cops wouldn’t have been
there in the first place and if Black America wouldn’t celebrate criminal behavior,
the city wouldn’t have to shell out bazillions of dollars to head off a riot.

Once again we see that the media has purposely misrepresented the incident
to further inflamed racial tensions and that Eric Garner brought this down on
himself.
A Friend
2019-08-04 22:11:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Adam H. Kerman
If the arresting officer had shown any compassion, the city wouldn't have
written an enormous check to the greedy relatives, none of whom I'm sure
gave a shit about Garner whilst he was alive.
If Eric Garner had behave in a civilized manner, the cops wouldn¹t
have been there in the first place and if Black America wouldn¹t
celebrate criminal behavior, the city wouldn¹t have to shell out
bazillions of dollars to head off a riot.
For crying out loud, Ed. Look at the video. Everybody's just talking
until the cop reaches past the other cops and puts Garner in a
chokehold. You appear to think that's proper behavior against a guy
who's not violent and is being questioned abut a trivial charge. Bad
cops rely on suckers to get by.
Once again we see that the media has purposely misrepresented the incident
The hell it has. Look at the video.
to further inflamed racial tensions and that Eric Garner brought this down on
himself.
No, he did not. Selling loosies is *trivial*. You get a ticket,
maybe, or you're told to move on. Nobody expects to be assaulted and
choked to death for it.

I'm tired of people making excuses for bad police. Good police defuse
situations; bad police inflame them.
Ed Stasiak
2019-08-04 22:40:29 UTC
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Permalink
A Friend
Ed Stasiak
If Eric Garner had behave in a civilized manner, the cops wouldn't
have been there in the first place and if Black America wouldn't
celebrate criminal behavior, the city wouldn't have to shell out
bazillions of dollars to head off a riot.
For crying out loud, Ed.  Look at the video.
For crying out loud, A Friend, I posted the video up-thread.
You appear to think that's proper behavior against a guy
who's not violent and is being questioned abut a trivial charge.
It’s absolutely proper behavior for dealing with 6+ foot tall 350+
pound guy built like an NFL lineman who is clearly getting violent
when the cops try to arrest him.

As they’ve already done _8 times_ before for the same violation
and more than 20 times before for other shit.
Selling loosies is *trivial*.
He was selling stolen cigarets and had done this number times
before.

“Cops found him in possession of 23 _sealed packs_ of untaxed
cigarettes and one open pack,  officials said. He was arrested
with untaxed cigarettes again on May 7, officials said.”

Those untaxed smokes were _stolen_ somewhere between the
factory and the state distributer’s facility and Garner was fencing
them on the street.

This isn’t some hard working innocent family man just going about
his day before the evil racist White cops brutalized him for no reason
as the media as portrayed it, he was a habitual criminal with a mile
long arrest record and a big fucking dude who chose to get in a fight
with the cops and died from being fat.
A Friend
2019-08-05 02:20:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
A Friend
Ed Stasiak
If Eric Garner had behave in a civilized manner, the cops wouldn't
have been there in the first place and if Black America wouldn't
celebrate criminal behavior, the city wouldn't have to shell out
bazillions of dollars to head off a riot.
For crying out loud, Ed.  Look at the video.
For crying out loud, A Friend, I posted the video up-thread.
Then you saw the cops and Garner talking before Mr. My Way or the
Highway reached in and put Garner in a fatal chokehold -- and, BTW,
chokeholds were against department policy.
Post by Ed Stasiak
You appear to think that's proper behavior against a guy
who's not violent and is being questioned abut a trivial charge.
It¹s absolutely proper behavior for dealing with 6+ foot tall 350+
pound guy built like an NFL lineman who is clearly getting violent
when the cops try to arrest him.
He wasn't "getting violent." He *was* arguing, presumably as mystified
as anyone about why this was suddenly such a big deal. Like I said,
good cops defuse situations.
Post by Ed Stasiak
As they¹ve already done _8 times_ before for the same violation
and more than 20 times before for other shit.
Selling loosies is *trivial*.
He was selling stolen cigarets and had done this number times
before.
³Cops found him in possession of 23 _sealed packs_ of untaxed
cigarettes and one open pack,  officials said. He was arrested
with untaxed cigarettes again on May 7, officials said.²
Those untaxed smokes were _stolen_ somewhere between the
factory and the state distributer¹s facility and Garner was fencing
them on the street.
Well, my stars and garters. In my smoking days, people knew who to see
to get untaxed cigarettes. They were always falling off the trucks.

Here, you're trying to paint a picture of Garner as some kind of
violent criminal mastermind, the Joey Gallo of loosies. It's not going
to sell.
Post by Ed Stasiak
This isn¹t some hard working innocent family man just going about
his day before the evil racist White cops brutalized him for no reason
as the media as portrayed it, he was a habitual criminal with a mile
long arrest record and a big fucking dude who chose to get in a fight
with the cops and died from being fat.
That's the way you want it because it makes the cop who killed him look
innocent but, in fact, this was not much of a crime, the cop was acting
against departmental policy, and Garner is not responsible for his own
victimization.
Ed Stasiak
2019-08-05 03:46:50 UTC
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Permalink
A Friend
Ed Stasiak
For crying out loud, A Friend, I posted the video up-thread.
Then you saw the cops and Garner talking before Mr. My Way or the
Highway reached in and put Garner in a fatal chokehold -- and, BTW,
chokeholds were against department policy.
I saw Mr.Fuck Da Police Garner refusing to come along quietly and fighting
with the cops, who then had to deal with a violent 6 foot tall 350lb habitual
criminal.
It’s absolutely proper behavior for dealing with 6+ foot tall 350+
pound guy built like an NFL lineman who is clearly getting violent
when the cops try to arrest him.
He wasn't "getting violent."
Flailing about, trying to escape and resisting the cops IS getting violent.
He *was* arguing, presumably as mystified as anyone about why this
was suddenly such a big deal.
“Mystified”, are you kidding me? The guy had already been arrested eight
times before for the very same thing, in fact he was still out on bail from the
_last time_ he got busted a month or two back.
Like I said, good cops defuse situations.
That was the only option Garner left them, he straight up told them to their faces
that he wasn’t going to get arrested and once again, we get a conveniently edited
video and that doesn’t show all the time the cops spent trying to convince the
dumbass to come along quietly.

Ya know, something normal civilized people do when told they're under arrest.
Well, my stars and garters.  In my smoking days, people knew who to see
to get untaxed cigarettes.  They were always falling off the trucks.
Well, I’m not a member of the Bowery Boys, so I couldn’t say.
Here, you're trying to paint a picture of Garner as some kind of violent
criminal mastermind, the Joey Gallo of loosies.  It's not going to sell.
He already had 30 arrests under his belt, including for assault. How many times
have you been arrested?
he was a habitual criminal with a mile long arrest record and a big fucking
dude who chose to get in a fight with the cops and died from being fat.
That's the way you want it because it makes the cop who killed him look
innocent but, in fact, this was not much of a crime, the cop was acting
against departmental policy, and Garner is not responsible for his own
victimization.
Except the cop clearly didn’t kill him, he was still resisting even when the cop
let go of him and the rest piled on to try and cuff him. He died of fat and stupidity.


anim8rfsk
2019-08-05 05:05:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Black guy got choked. Why the F--- don't they just OBEY THE F------ LAW??
August 4, 2019 at 8:46:50 PM MST
A Friend
Ed Stasiak
For crying out loud, A Friend, I posted the video up-thread.
Then you saw the cops and Garner talking before Mr. My Way or the
Highway reached in and put Garner in a fatal chokehold -- and, BTW,
chokeholds were against department policy.
I saw Mr.Fuck Da Police Garner refusing to come along quietly and fighting
with the cops, who then had to deal with a violent 6 foot tall 350lb habitual
criminal.
It’s absolutely proper behavior for dealing with 6+ foot tall 350+
pound guy built like an NFL lineman who is clearly getting violent
when the cops try to arrest him.
He wasn't "getting violent."
Flailing about, trying to escape and resisting the cops IS getting violent.
He *was* arguing, presumably as mystified as anyone about why this
was suddenly such a big deal.
“Mystified”, are you kidding me? The guy had already been arrested eight
times before for the very same thing, in fact he was still out on bail from the
_last time_ he got busted a month or two back.
Like I said, good cops defuse situations.
That was the only option Garner left them, he straight up told them to their faces
that he wasn’t going to get arrested and once again, we get a conveniently edited
video
Yeah, that edit bothers me a lot.
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FPP
2019-08-05 05:28:59 UTC
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Post by anim8rfsk
Black guy got choked. Why the F--- don't they just OBEY THE F------ LAW??
August 4, 2019 at 8:46:50 PM MST
A Friend
Ed Stasiak
For crying out loud, A Friend, I posted the video up-thread.
Then you saw the cops and Garner talking before Mr. My Way or the
Highway reached in and put Garner in a fatal chokehold -- and, BTW,
chokeholds were against department policy.
I saw Mr.Fuck Da Police Garner refusing to come along quietly and fighting
with the cops, who then had to deal with a violent 6 foot tall 350lb habitual
criminal.
It’s absolutely proper behavior for dealing with 6+ foot tall 350+
pound guy built like an NFL lineman who is clearly getting violent
when the cops try to arrest him.
He wasn't "getting violent."
Flailing about, trying to escape and resisting the cops IS getting violent.
He *was* arguing, presumably as mystified as anyone about why this
was suddenly such a big deal.
“Mystified”, are you kidding me? The guy had already been arrested eight
times before for the very same thing, in fact he was still out on bail from the
_last time_ he got busted a month or two back.
Like I said, good cops defuse situations.
That was the only option Garner left them, he straight up told them to their faces
that he wasn’t going to get arrested and once again, we get a conveniently edited
video
Yeah, that edit bothers me a lot.
I don't give a shit it he was arrested 100 times before, there was no
need to arrest him that last time. None.

And Ed's a bigot... so you can take his opinion for what it's worth.
He's argued that every black man who got shot had it coming.

Ask him about Philando Castile. He swore up and down that he "pulled a
gun" on the cop, even after the cop himself confirmed that Castile did
no such thing.
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"I'm smart." (* but you can't see my grades.)
"I'm totally exonerated." (* but you can't see the report.)
Ed Stasiak
2019-08-05 14:43:00 UTC
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Post by FPP
FPP
anim8rfsk
Yeah, that edit bothers me a lot.
I don't give a shit it he was arrested 100 times before, there was no
need to arrest him that last time.  None.
What the fuck FPP, have you not been following this thread? The guy
was selling stolen cigarets and was still out on bail from the last time
he got busted for selling stolen cigarets a month or two prior, on top of
the seven previous times he’d been busted for selling stolen cigarets.

And it doesn’t matter even if the cops had no cause to arrest him, a street
corner isn’t a court room and he can’t just refuse to be arrested and then
fight the cops when they try to cuff him.

What did he think was going to happen, they’d just let him go?
Post by FPP
And Ed's a bigot
As usual, you’re forced to resort to slander and misrepresentations when
your argument once again gets shot down in flames by the truth but then
that’s par for the course with you.
The Horny Goat
2019-08-05 01:19:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
Once again we see that the media has purposely misrepresented the incident
to further inflamed racial tensions and that Eric Garner brought this down =
on
himself.
I agree - the out of court settlement by the city was an act of
cowardice but one designed to head off a riot.

I'm sure local taxpayers will be impressed though if New York is like
British Columbia this would have been paid by a municipal insurance
fund all municipalities pay into and whether or not to settle would
have been something the insurance company would have advised on with a
threat of not paying out on insurance if their advice wasn't followed.
(I've known of cases - not involving death - where our municipality's
insurance paid for a settlement the town would have preferred to go to
court on)
A Friend
2019-08-04 19:36:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
How the Hell much can you sell a single cigarette for?
Cigarette packs are up to a minimum of $13 each (the "base price") in
NYC. Loosies can go for a dollar or more.

This is nothing new. Loosies were commonly sold during the Depression
by legitimate businesses, even though it's always been against local
law to do so. I don't know when it became illegal under federal law,
but it is.
Post by anim8rfsk
Al Sharpton rabbled roused everything into a frenzy.
I was in New York in the '80s. Sharpton made everything far, far worse
than it was. The Tawana Brawley debacle he orchestrated was bad
enough; I submit that his vicious, racist attacks on assault victim
Marla Hanson were even worse. Everybody's free to look 'em up.

Of course Sharpton has an MSNBC show. He has it because, in 2010, he
came out in support of Comcast's acquisition of NBC Universal, which
went through the following year -- which is when Sharpton was given
POLITICSNATION. No, I don't watch. Hardly anyone does.
Ed Stasiak
2019-08-04 18:23:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Adam H. Kerman
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant.
All that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground
and said so multiple times. At that point, he should have been
sat up.
Except it is absolutely relevant. The cops told him he was being
arrested and he resisted, forcing 4-5 cops to try and take him down
(a 350lb guy well over 6’ tall) and even when he was on the ground
and saying “I can’t breath”, he continued to resist even after the cop
released him from the choke hold as the other cops tried to cuff him.

He died because he was a big fat dude with asthma and heart disease,
not from the choke hold.

As for selling cigarets I agree, who gives a shit but the fact was that
at that time, he was literally _out on bail_ after having just been busted
for selling smokes as well as having weed, driving without a license
and giving a false identity (not to mention his _30_ prior arrests).

Also, I'm confused by the term "untaxed" cigarets, were these just
smokes he bought at the convenience store and was selling one at
a time, or cigarets without a NY tax stamp (i.e. stolen)?

Loading Image...
anim8rfsk
2019-08-04 18:56:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Adam H. Kerman
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant.
All that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground
and said so multiple times. At that point, he should have been
sat up.
Except it is absolutely relevant. The cops told him he was being
arrested and he resisted, forcing 4-5 cops to try and take him down
(a 350lb guy well over 6’ tall) and even when he was on the ground
and saying “I can’t breath”, he continued to resist even after the cop
released him from the choke hold as the other cops tried to cuff him.
He died because he was a big fat dude with asthma and heart disease,
not from the choke hold.
As for selling cigarets I agree, who gives a shit but the fact was that
at that time, he was literally _out on bail_ after having just been busted
for selling smokes as well as having weed, driving without a license
and giving a false identity (not to mention his _30_ prior arrests).
Also, I'm confused by the term "untaxed" cigarets, were these just
smokes he bought at the convenience store and was selling one at
a time, or cigarets without a NY tax stamp (i.e. stolen)?
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/21/36/26/4580760/3/920x920.jpg
They don't have a tax stamp because he sold them one by one, and the tax
stamp is on the pack.

Still this seems on it's face to be a silly thing to enforce; unless the
cigarettes are stolen, the tax was already paid somewhere down the line. But
it seems it's not about the tax itself; it's illegal to resell loosies at
all.

Hmm. Holy shit. The tax on 20 cigarettes in NYC is $5.85. The report on
Garner was that he had 10,000 cigarettes on him (it was actually 100).

Highest tax in the USA on a pack of 20 cigarettes is Cook County, Illinois -
$7.42. Lowest is Missouri - 17¢

Before anyone asks, it's illegal to buy tax free cigarettes on the Indian
reservation and resell 'em.

I wondered why the Hell people drove to the reservation store to buy
cigarettes. At a tax savings of up to $74.20 a carton, it makes sense.
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Ed Stasiak
2019-08-04 19:49:07 UTC
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Permalink
anim8rfsk
Ed Stasiak
Also, I'm confused by the term "untaxed" cigarets, were these just
smokes he bought at the convenience store and was selling one at
a time, or cigarets without a NY tax stamp (i.e. stolen)?
Still this seems on it's face to be a silly thing to enforce; unless the
cigarettes are stolen
Seems he was selling stolen cigarets without the state tax stamp:

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/wife-man-filmed-chokehold-arrested-article-1.1893790

"That particular area of the 120th Precinct has been the subject of numerous
quality-of-life complaints and enforcement actions for months," Davis said.

"Among the specific public complaints of illegal activity in that area included
the sale of untaxed cigarettes as well as open (alcohol) container and marijuana
use and sale offenses."

Garner's rap sheet includes eight arrests for possession and selling cigarettes.

But the 311 tip made its way to Banks' office where "the untaxed cigarette problem
on Bay St." was discussed, a source said. A day after the 311 call was made, cops
arrested Garner for selling cigarettes without proper tax stamps.

Cops found him in possession of 23 sealed packs of untaxed cigarettes and one
open pack, officials said. He was arrested with untaxed cigarettes again on May 7,
officials said.

Then, a week before his death, Garner was "warned and admonished" about selling
untaxed cigarettes, a police source said.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-04 21:09:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Adam H. Kerman
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant.
All that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground
and said so multiple times. At that point, he should have been
sat up.
Except it is absolutely relevant. The cops told him he was being
arrested and he resisted, forcing 4-5 cops to try and take him down
(a 350lb guy well over 6’ tall) and even when he was on the ground
and saying “I can’t breath”, he continued to resist even after the cop
released him from the choke hold as the other cops tried to cuff him.
He died because he was a big fat dude with asthma and heart disease,
not from the choke hold.
As for selling cigarets I agree, who gives a shit but the fact was that
at that time, he was literally _out on bail_ after having just been busted
for selling smokes as well as having weed, driving without a license
and giving a false identity (not to mention his _30_ prior arrests).
Also, I'm confused by the term "untaxed" cigarets, were these just
smokes he bought at the convenience store and was selling one at
a time, or cigarets without a NY tax stamp (i.e. stolen)?
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/21/36/26/4580760/3/920x920.jpg
They don't have a tax stamp because he sold them one by one, and the tax
stamp is on the pack.
Still this seems on it's face to be a silly thing to enforce; unless the
cigarettes are stolen, the tax was already paid somewhere down the line. But
it seems it's not about the tax itself; it's illegal to resell loosies at
all.
Hmm. Holy shit. The tax on 20 cigarettes in NYC is $5.85. The report on
Garner was that he had 10,000 cigarettes on him (it was actually 100).
Highest tax in the USA on a pack of 20 cigarettes is Cook County, Illinois -
$7.42. Lowest is Missouri - 17 cents
Illinois, Cook County, and Chicago (and numerous other municipalities)
all try to balance budgets on the dirty lungs of cigarette smokers.
Post by anim8rfsk
Before anyone asks, it's illegal to buy tax free cigarettes on the Indian
reservation and resell 'em.
It's illegal to buy cigs at lower taxes in one state, then cross the
state line. The way to make it legal is to buy the tax stamps and put
them on the packs before reselling.

I think the tax stamp is generally for municipal taxes. You just write a
check for the state portion of the tax. If the state and local taxes are
paid, it's not illegal to cross state lines nor buy them on reservations.
Post by anim8rfsk
I wondered why the Hell people drove to the reservation store to buy
cigarettes. At a tax savings of up to $74.20 a carton, it makes sense.
It wasn't to enjoy culture?
anim8rfsk
2019-08-04 23:27:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by anim8rfsk
Adam H. Kerman
I have no idea what resistance Garner offered, but it's irrelevant.
All that's relevant was that he was choking while on the ground
and said so multiple times. At that point, he should have been
sat up.
Except it is absolutely relevant. The cops told him he was being
arrested and he resisted, forcing 4-5 cops to try and take him down
(a 350lb guy well over 6’ tall) and even when he was on the ground
and saying “I can’t breath”, he continued to resist even after the cop
released him from the choke hold as the other cops tried to cuff him.
He died because he was a big fat dude with asthma and heart disease,
not from the choke hold.
As for selling cigarets I agree, who gives a shit but the fact was that
at that time, he was literally _out on bail_ after having just been busted
for selling smokes as well as having weed, driving without a license
and giving a false identity (not to mention his _30_ prior arrests).
Also, I'm confused by the term "untaxed" cigarets, were these just
smokes he bought at the convenience store and was selling one at
a time, or cigarets without a NY tax stamp (i.e. stolen)?
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/21/36/26/4580760/3/920x920.jpg
They don't have a tax stamp because he sold them one by one, and the tax
stamp is on the pack.
Still this seems on it's face to be a silly thing to enforce; unless the
cigarettes are stolen, the tax was already paid somewhere down the line. But
it seems it's not about the tax itself; it's illegal to resell loosies at
all.
Hmm. Holy shit. The tax on 20 cigarettes in NYC is $5.85. The report on
Garner was that he had 10,000 cigarettes on him (it was actually 100).
Highest tax in the USA on a pack of 20 cigarettes is Cook County, Illinois -
$7.42. Lowest is Missouri - 17 cents
Illinois, Cook County, and Chicago (and numerous other municipalities)
all try to balance budgets on the dirty lungs of cigarette smokers.
Post by anim8rfsk
Before anyone asks, it's illegal to buy tax free cigarettes on the Indian
reservation and resell 'em.
It's illegal to buy cigs at lower taxes in one state, then cross the
state line. The way to make it legal is to buy the tax stamps and put
them on the packs before reselling.
I think the tax stamp is generally for municipal taxes. You just write a
check for the state portion of the tax. If the state and local taxes are
paid, it's not illegal to cross state lines nor buy them on reservations.
Post by anim8rfsk
I wondered why the Hell people drove to the reservation store to buy
cigarettes. At a tax savings of up to $74.20 a carton, it makes sense.
It wasn't to enjoy culture?
LOL, the reservation stores are like ratty 7-11s right on the border, with
big signs advertising cheap cigarettes and nothing visible beyond them but
badlands. I don't think there's a lot of culture involved.

Loading Image...
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The Horny Goat
2019-08-05 01:23:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
They don't have a tax stamp because he sold them one by one, and the tax
stamp is on the pack.
Someone else has posted that he was found to be carrying 23 20-packs
still in the original cellophane that did NOT have the packs
suggesting it was black market stolen out of a warehouse before
payment of tax.

As for the suggestion that the smokes came from a Mohawk smokeshop
that's unlikely as Mohawk packages do have a stamp, just not the same
one as regular cigs with their stamps saying under what authority they
were sold tax exempt and as stated reselling tax-free cigarettes off
reserve is illegal.

Bottom line is he shouldn't have died for this but on the other hand,
cannot reasonably be said to be a completely innocent party who had to
do several things stupidly wrong to die for it.
FPP
2019-08-05 05:29:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by anim8rfsk
They don't have a tax stamp because he sold them one by one, and the tax
stamp is on the pack.
Someone else has posted that he was found to be carrying 23 20-packs
still in the original cellophane that did NOT have the packs
suggesting it was black market stolen out of a warehouse before
payment of tax.
As for the suggestion that the smokes came from a Mohawk smokeshop
that's unlikely as Mohawk packages do have a stamp, just not the same
one as regular cigs with their stamps saying under what authority they
were sold tax exempt and as stated reselling tax-free cigarettes off
reserve is illegal.
Bottom line is he shouldn't have died for this but on the other hand,
cannot reasonably be said to be a completely innocent party who had to
do several things stupidly wrong to die for it.
Have you watched the video? Have you?
--
Trump: "I'm rich." (* but you can't see my taxes.)
"I'm smart." (* but you can't see my grades.)
"I'm totally exonerated." (* but you can't see the report.)
A Friend
2019-08-05 02:25:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
LOL, the reservation stores are like ratty 7-11s right on the border, with
big signs advertising cheap cigarettes and nothing visible beyond them but
badlands. I don't think there's a lot of culture involved.
I have in mind a town just outside whatever reservation it is that's
near Mt. Rushmore. Population was about 160. There were 11 liquor
stores. In this light, the cigarette depots inside the reservation
come off as an attempt at balance.

BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
anim8rfsk
2019-08-05 02:51:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by A Friend
Post by anim8rfsk
LOL, the reservation stores are like ratty 7-11s right on the border, with
big signs advertising cheap cigarettes and nothing visible beyond them but
badlands. I don't think there's a lot of culture involved.
I have in mind a town just outside whatever reservation it is that's
near Mt. Rushmore. Population was about 160. There were 11 liquor
stores. In this light, the cigarette depots inside the reservation
come off as an attempt at balance.
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
Is it illegal to transport cigarettes across state lines for personal use?
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BTR1701
2019-08-05 07:02:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.

And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they sure
as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external indicators
that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia cigarettes in it."
shawn
2019-08-05 09:32:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they sure
as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external indicators
that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia cigarettes in it."
If they were serious about it they might put someone outside of one of
the high volume stores looking for Virginia tags and then calling back
to the cops on the other side of the river letting them know when a
car is heading back over the state line. As you say there shouldn't be
any problem with people having bought cigarettes in Virginia coming
across the line even if they bought 100 packs.
A Friend
2019-08-05 12:17:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they sure
as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external indicators
that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer. That goes even if they're for personal use.
You can then deduct the Virginia taxes from your Maryland return. The
cops safely assume that absolutely no one does any of this.

The cops look for cars with Maryland plates parked at cigarette depots.
They do the same thing regarding fireworks.
BTR1701
2019-08-05 15:20:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they
sure as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external
indicators that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia
cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer.
Yeah, when your taxes are due in April, you have to claim and pay use
tax for out-of-state purchases you brought home-- this applies to any
out-of-state purchase, not just cigarettes. If you buy a car, furniture,
Amazon orders, etc., it's all subject to use tax. But the cops on the
side of the road have no way of knowing whether a person will properly
claim that carton of cigs on their state tax return six, eight, nine
months or whatever in the future.
The cops look for cars with Maryland plates parked at cigarette depots.
They do the same thing regarding fireworks.
So Maryland cops are running law enforcement operations in Virginia?
Wow. Law enforcement must be a lot different there because there's no
way California, for example, would tolerate Nevada cops running
surveillance ops of perfectly legal businesses and their customers
inside California.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-05 17:08:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they
sure as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external
indicators that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia
cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer.
Yeah, when your taxes are due in April, you have to claim and pay use
tax for out-of-state purchases you brought home-- this applies to any
out-of-state purchase, not just cigarettes. If you buy a car, furniture,
Amazon orders, etc., it's all subject to use tax. But the cops on the
side of the road have no way of knowing whether a person will properly
claim that carton of cigs on their state tax return six, eight, nine
months or whatever in the future.
Don't conflate titlled with untitled property. The state has a lot less
trouble collecting taxes on the buyer registering titled property as it's
done at the time of title and registration.

I looked it up: It's felony! "Importing more than five cartons is a
felony if transported."

https://taxes.marylandtaxes.gov/Business_Taxes/Business_Tax_Types/Tobacco_Tax/Tax_Information/Frequently_Asked_Questions/Consumer_FAQs_about_Tobacco.shtml
Post by BTR1701
The cops look for cars with Maryland plates parked at cigarette depots.
They do the same thing regarding fireworks.
So Maryland cops are running law enforcement operations in Virginia?
Wow. Law enforcement must be a lot different there because there's no
way California, for example, would tolerate Nevada cops running
surveillance ops of perfectly legal businesses and their customers
inside California.
anim8rfsk
2019-08-05 17:25:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Black guy got choked. Why the F--- don't they just OBEY THE F------ LAW??
August 5, 2019 at 10:08:28 AM MST
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they
sure as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external
indicators that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia
cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer.
Yeah, when your taxes are due in April, you have to claim and pay use
tax for out-of-state purchases you brought home-- this applies to any
out-of-state purchase, not just cigarettes. If you buy a car, furniture,
Amazon orders, etc., it's all subject to use tax. But the cops on the
side of the road have no way of knowing whether a person will properly
claim that carton of cigs on their state tax return six, eight, nine
months or whatever in the future.
Don't conflate titlled with untitled property. The state has a lot less
trouble collecting taxes on the buyer registering titled property as it's
done at the time of title and registration.
I looked it up: It's felony! "Importing more than five cartons is a
felony if transported."
The accused cop's partner supposedly said Garner had 10,000 cigarettes on him
which I suspect would raise selling loosies to the felony category. It's also
obviously nonsense, and I don't recall The Wiki citing a source ...
--
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Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-05 17:31:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Black guy got choked. Why the F--- don't they just OBEY THE F------ LAW??
August 5, 2019 at 10:08:28 AM MST
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go
to another
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on
trade for
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they
sure as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external
indicators that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia
cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer.
Yeah, when your taxes are due in April, you have to claim and pay use
tax for out-of-state purchases you brought home-- this applies to any
out-of-state purchase, not just cigarettes. If you buy a car, furniture,
Amazon orders, etc., it's all subject to use tax. But the cops on the
side of the road have no way of knowing whether a person will properly
claim that carton of cigs on their state tax return six, eight, nine
months or whatever in the future.
Don't conflate titlled with untitled property. The state has a lot less
trouble collecting taxes on the buyer registering titled property as it's
done at the time of title and registration.
I looked it up: It's felony! "Importing more than five cartons is a
felony if transported."
The accused cop's partner supposedly said Garner had 10,000 cigarettes on him
which I suspect would raise selling loosies to the felony category. It's also
obviously nonsense, and I don't recall The Wiki citing a source ...
Yeah, there's no way someone like that would have more than he could
sell on him at any one time, let alone imagining that he'd carry
anything excess.
anim8rfsk
2019-08-05 18:00:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Black guy got choked. Why the F--- don't they just OBEY THE F------ LAW??
August 5, 2019 at 10:08:28 AM MST
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go
to another
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on
trade for
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they
sure as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external
indicators that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia
cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer.
Yeah, when your taxes are due in April, you have to claim and pay use
tax for out-of-state purchases you brought home-- this applies to any
out-of-state purchase, not just cigarettes. If you buy a car, furniture,
Amazon orders, etc., it's all subject to use tax. But the cops on the
side of the road have no way of knowing whether a person will properly
claim that carton of cigs on their state tax return six, eight, nine
months or whatever in the future.
Don't conflate titlled with untitled property. The state has a lot less
trouble collecting taxes on the buyer registering titled property as it's
done at the time of title and registration.
I looked it up: It's felony! "Importing more than five cartons is a
felony if transported."
The accused cop's partner supposedly said Garner had 10,000 cigarettes on him
which I suspect would raise selling loosies to the felony category. It's also
obviously nonsense, and I don't recall The Wiki citing a source ...
Yeah, there's no way someone like that would have more than he could
sell on him at any one time, let alone imagining that he'd carry
anything excess.
That's like 50 cartons. It would require a backpack.

BTW, did you know that while USA cartons are 10 packs of 20 each, metric
Canadia cartons are 8 packs of 25 each?
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
shawn
2019-08-05 17:34:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Black guy got choked. Why the F--- don't they just OBEY THE F------ LAW??
August 5, 2019 at 10:08:28 AM MST
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they
sure as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external
indicators that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia
cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer.
Yeah, when your taxes are due in April, you have to claim and pay use
tax for out-of-state purchases you brought home-- this applies to any
out-of-state purchase, not just cigarettes. If you buy a car, furniture,
Amazon orders, etc., it's all subject to use tax. But the cops on the
side of the road have no way of knowing whether a person will properly
claim that carton of cigs on their state tax return six, eight, nine
months or whatever in the future.
Don't conflate titlled with untitled property. The state has a lot less
trouble collecting taxes on the buyer registering titled property as it's
done at the time of title and registration.
I looked it up: It's felony! "Importing more than five cartons is a
felony if transported."
The accused cop's partner supposedly said Garner had 10,000 cigarettes on him
which I suspect would raise selling loosies to the felony category. It's also
obviously nonsense, and I don't recall The Wiki citing a source ...
Yet I also saw that the 10,000 cigarette report was incorrect. That
it's really only 100. Which actually makes sense the guy wasn't
setting up a permanent business but just on his own selling single
cigarettes. No way he would have any hope of selling 10,000 cigarettes
in a day or even a 1000 so there's no reason to carry all of that with
him.
anim8rfsk
2019-08-05 18:01:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by shawn
Post by anim8rfsk
Black guy got choked. Why the F--- don't they just OBEY THE F------ LAW??
August 5, 2019 at 10:08:28 AM MST
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to
another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade
for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they
sure as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external
indicators that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia
cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer.
Yeah, when your taxes are due in April, you have to claim and pay use
tax for out-of-state purchases you brought home-- this applies to any
out-of-state purchase, not just cigarettes. If you buy a car, furniture,
Amazon orders, etc., it's all subject to use tax. But the cops on the
side of the road have no way of knowing whether a person will properly
claim that carton of cigs on their state tax return six, eight, nine
months or whatever in the future.
Don't conflate titlled with untitled property. The state has a lot less
trouble collecting taxes on the buyer registering titled property as it's
done at the time of title and registration.
I looked it up: It's felony! "Importing more than five cartons is a
felony if transported."
The accused cop's partner supposedly said Garner had 10,000 cigarettes on him
which I suspect would raise selling loosies to the felony category. It's also
obviously nonsense, and I don't recall The Wiki citing a source ...
Yet I also saw that the 10,000 cigarette report was incorrect. That
it's really only 100. Which actually makes sense the guy wasn't
setting up a permanent business but just on his own selling single
cigarettes. No way he would have any hope of selling 10,000 cigarettes
in a day or even a 1000 so there's no reason to carry all of that with
him.
The only reason to have that many ciggies on you is that you're on your way
home from stealing them.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
shawn
2019-08-05 17:38:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 17:08:28 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they
sure as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external
indicators that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia
cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer.
Yeah, when your taxes are due in April, you have to claim and pay use
tax for out-of-state purchases you brought home-- this applies to any
out-of-state purchase, not just cigarettes. If you buy a car, furniture,
Amazon orders, etc., it's all subject to use tax. But the cops on the
side of the road have no way of knowing whether a person will properly
claim that carton of cigs on their state tax return six, eight, nine
months or whatever in the future.
Don't conflate titlled with untitled property. The state has a lot less
trouble collecting taxes on the buyer registering titled property as it's
done at the time of title and registration.
I looked it up: It's felony! "Importing more than five cartons is a
felony if transported."
https://taxes.marylandtaxes.gov/Business_Taxes/Business_Tax_Types/Tobacco_Tax/Tax_Information/Frequently_Asked_Questions/Consumer_FAQs_about_Tobacco.shtml
So if I was traveling from Georgia in an RV with more than 5 cartons
of cigarettes in the vehicle to Maryland I'm guilty of a felony even
if the cigarettes were solely for personal use? What if I'm just
passing through the state? Or is it only Maryland residents that are
guilty of this felony if they have more than 5 cartons in their
vehicle when coming in to the state?
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-05 17:43:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by shawn
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 17:08:28 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they
sure as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external
indicators that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia
cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer.
Yeah, when your taxes are due in April, you have to claim and pay use
tax for out-of-state purchases you brought home-- this applies to any
out-of-state purchase, not just cigarettes. If you buy a car, furniture,
Amazon orders, etc., it's all subject to use tax. But the cops on the
side of the road have no way of knowing whether a person will properly
claim that carton of cigs on their state tax return six, eight, nine
months or whatever in the future.
Don't conflate titlled with untitled property. The state has a lot less
trouble collecting taxes on the buyer registering titled property as it's
done at the time of title and registration.
I looked it up: It's felony! "Importing more than five cartons is a
felony if transported."
https://taxes.marylandtaxes.gov/Business_Taxes/Business_Tax_Types/Tobacco_Tax/Tax_Information/Frequently_Asked_Questions/Consumer_FAQs_about_Tobacco.shtml
So if I was traveling from Georgia in an RV with more than 5 cartons
of cigarettes in the vehicle to Maryland I'm guilty of a felony even
if the cigarettes were solely for personal use? What if I'm just
passing through the state? Or is it only Maryland residents that are
guilty of this felony if they have more than 5 cartons in their
vehicle when coming in to the state?
Passing through the state isn't importation.

There's probably a transportation license as well. I'm sure you'd be in
violation of something.
BTR1701
2019-08-05 18:24:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
I looked it up: It's felony! "Importing more than five cartons is a
felony if transported."
https://taxes.marylandtaxes.gov/Business_Taxes/Business_Tax_Types/Tobacco_Tax/Tax_Information/Frequently_Asked_Questions/Consumer_FAQs_about_Tobacco.shtml
That says five cartons PER PERSON, so the easy way to beat that is go in an
RV with 15+ of your best friends and family members. Everyone gets five
cartons, so that's at least 60-70 cartons right there.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-05 16:35:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by A Friend
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they sure
as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external indicators
that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer. That goes even if they're for personal use.
You can then deduct the Virginia taxes from your Maryland return. The
cops safely assume that absolutely no one does any of this.
The cops look for cars with Maryland plates parked at cigarette depots.
They do the same thing regarding fireworks.
Then if what you're saying is true, then the disclosure doesn't have to
be made until his income taxes are due or whenever the deadline is for
paying the use tax. Is that immediately upon crossing the state line?
BTR1701
2019-08-05 16:42:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to
another state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint
on trade for one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other
states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area
at least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes
in each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway.
Are they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because
they sure as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external
indicators that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia
cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer. That goes even if they're for personal use.
You can then deduct the Virginia taxes from your Maryland return. The
cops safely assume that absolutely no one does any of this.
The cops look for cars with Maryland plates parked at cigarette depots.
They do the same thing regarding fireworks.
Then if what you're saying is true, then the disclosure doesn't have to
be made until his income taxes are due or whenever the deadline is for
paying the use tax. Is that immediately upon crossing the state line?
And even if it is-- as bizarre and unworkable as that would be,
considering how government offices may not even be open when you cross
back into Maryland-- unless the cops follow them all the way home, they
have no idea at the state line if the person is on their way to pay the
tax or not.

"Yes, judge, I was heading to the Treasurer's office to pay the tax when
this cop pulled me over the moment I crossed into Maryland and wrote me
the citation."

The state has to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. Seems like
the scenario above would leave the prosecution fucked.
A Friend
2019-08-05 18:25:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by A Friend
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they sure
as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external indicators
that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia cigarettes in it."
Where are you getting this stuff? It is not legal for cigarette-buying
Marylanders to not pay the Maryland taxes on Virginian cigarettes when
the buyers cross back into Maryland. They're supposed to write a check
to the state treasurer. That goes even if they're for personal use.
You can then deduct the Virginia taxes from your Maryland return. The
cops safely assume that absolutely no one does any of this.
The cops look for cars with Maryland plates parked at cigarette depots.
They do the same thing regarding fireworks.
Then if what you're saying is true, then the disclosure doesn't have to
be made until his income taxes are due or whenever the deadline is for
paying the use tax. Is that immediately upon crossing the state line?
The cops nail the cars as soon as they cross back into Maryland. I've
never tried to bring in cigarettes myself, so all I have is anecdotal
evidence. Are they going to waste everyone's time and money by
stopping people who bring one or two cartons across the line? I dunno.
I hope not, but cops are capable of doing anything.

I remember once seeing a gigantic box of Marlboros for sale over there.
It was huge and might have contained 25 or 30 cartons. I don't think
it was for personal use.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-05 16:32:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they sure
as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external indicators
that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia cigarettes in it."
Illinois does it all the time with people who purchased fireworks in
Indiana. I have no idea what probable cause the police have to search
the vehicle.
BTR1701
2019-08-05 18:24:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they sure
as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external indicators
that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia cigarettes in it."
Illinois does it all the time with people who purchased fireworks in
Indiana. I have no idea what probable cause the police have to search
the vehicle.
Every year before July 4th the local news and every police agency on the
map goes balls to the wall with dire warnings about illegal fireworks and
how they're "really going to crack down this year" and every year it's like
the bombing of Dresden here with thousands of people setting off fireworks
all across the basin. If you go up in the hills, it's actually quite
beautiful looking down across the entirety of L.A. with fireworks popping
off as far as the eye can see. We had so many last month that the smoke
residue actually triggered an air quality alert the next day.

Obviously the cops are really making a dent.

Problem for them is fireworks aren't illegal statewide, so no one has to
cross the border to get them. All they have to do is leave L.A. County.
shawn
2019-08-05 18:32:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by A Friend
BTW the Maryland State Police sometimes spies on people crossing the
border into Virginia for cheaper cigarettes. There are several
high-volume stores just the other side of the Potomac. The cops nail
the cars as they cross back into Maryland.
So long as people don't resell them, it's perfectly legal to go to another
state and buy them. It would be an unconstitutional restraint on trade for
one state to prohibit its citizens from shopping in other states.
And how are they spying on people crossing the border? In the DC area at
least, the border is crossed by half a dozen freeways with 4-6 lanes in
each direction. That's hundreds of cars per minute on each freeway. Are
they just stopping people at random looking for the cigs? Because they sure
as hell can't stop everyone and I don't know of any external indicators
that says to a cop, "This is a car that has Virginia cigarettes in it."
Illinois does it all the time with people who purchased fireworks in
Indiana. I have no idea what probable cause the police have to search
the vehicle.
Every year before July 4th the local news and every police agency on the
map goes balls to the wall with dire warnings about illegal fireworks and
how they're "really going to crack down this year" and every year it's like
the bombing of Dresden here with thousands of people setting off fireworks
all across the basin. If you go up in the hills, it's actually quite
beautiful looking down across the entirety of L.A. with fireworks popping
off as far as the eye can see. We had so many last month that the smoke
residue actually triggered an air quality alert the next day.
Obviously the cops are really making a dent.
Problem for them is fireworks aren't illegal statewide, so no one has to
cross the border to get them. All they have to do is leave L.A. County.
We had the same thing some years back when they outlawed selling any
real fireworks in Georgia. Never stopped people from crossing the
border into the neighboring states to buy fireworks as you could tell
from all the fireworks going off around the 4th of July.

I can remember crossing the state border (north, south and west) and
seeing multiple big building selling fireworks within the first few
miles. Wonder how they are doing after Georgia allowed fireworks to be
sold in the state again. Now there's big packages of fireworks in a
stand at my local Publix year round.
The Horny Goat
2019-08-05 01:13:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Ed Stasiak
Also, I'm confused by the term "untaxed" cigarets, were these just
smokes he bought at the convenience store and was selling one at
a time, or cigarets without a NY tax stamp (i.e. stolen)?
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/21/36/26/4580760/3/920x920.jpg
They don't have a tax stamp because he sold them one by one, and the tax
stamp is on the pack.
Still this seems on it's face to be a silly thing to enforce; unless the
cigarettes are stolen, the tax was already paid somewhere down the line. But
it seems it's not about the tax itself; it's illegal to resell loosies at
all.
Hmm. Holy shit. The tax on 20 cigarettes in NYC is $5.85. The report on
Garner was that he had 10,000 cigarettes on him (it was actually 100).
Highest tax in the USA on a pack of 20 cigarettes is Cook County, Illinois -
$7.42. Lowest is Missouri - 17¢
Before anyone asks, it's illegal to buy tax free cigarettes on the Indian
reservation and resell 'em.
I wondered why the Hell people drove to the reservation store to buy
cigarettes. At a tax savings of up to $74.20 a carton, it makes sense.
On my earlier posting on how cigs are taxed I obviously didn't read
enough to get the whole story on the case.

Definitely sounds like the cop (a) saw a frequent offender and was
determined to get him off the street (b) took him to the ground harder
than someone not "known to the police" would have been done leaving
(c) whether the level of force was out of line or not and whether this
was just an unfortunate accident due to the victim's poor health
(which is not something an officer would reasonably be expected to
know in advance).

Though the victim's family (and Al Sharpton) won't agree, given his
record I think the officer deserves more leeway than usual
particularly as the victim continued to resist arrest even after being
on the ground. Had he stopped at that point the tragedy would not have
happened.

But don't expect me to have sympathy for anybody who says this is
another case of "innocently walking down the street while black".
There was a homicide but no intent to kill thus manslaughter AT THE
VERY MOST.
FPP
2019-08-05 05:32:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Ed Stasiak
Also, I'm confused by the term "untaxed" cigarets, were these just
smokes he bought at the convenience store and was selling one at
a time, or cigarets without a NY tax stamp (i.e. stolen)?
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/21/36/26/4580760/3/920x920.jpg
They don't have a tax stamp because he sold them one by one, and the tax
stamp is on the pack.
Still this seems on it's face to be a silly thing to enforce; unless the
cigarettes are stolen, the tax was already paid somewhere down the line. But
it seems it's not about the tax itself; it's illegal to resell loosies at
all.
Hmm. Holy shit. The tax on 20 cigarettes in NYC is $5.85. The report on
Garner was that he had 10,000 cigarettes on him (it was actually 100).
Highest tax in the USA on a pack of 20 cigarettes is Cook County, Illinois -
$7.42. Lowest is Missouri - 17¢
Before anyone asks, it's illegal to buy tax free cigarettes on the Indian
reservation and resell 'em.
I wondered why the Hell people drove to the reservation store to buy
cigarettes. At a tax savings of up to $74.20 a carton, it makes sense.
On my earlier posting on how cigs are taxed I obviously didn't read
enough to get the whole story on the case.
Definitely sounds like the cop (a) saw a frequent offender and was
determined to get him off the street (b) took him to the ground harder
than someone not "known to the police" would have been done leaving
(c) whether the level of force was out of line or not and whether this
was just an unfortunate accident due to the victim's poor health
(which is not something an officer would reasonably be expected to
know in advance).
Though the victim's family (and Al Sharpton) won't agree, given his
record I think the officer deserves more leeway than usual
particularly as the victim continued to resist arrest even after being
on the ground. Had he stopped at that point the tragedy would not have
happened.
But don't expect me to have sympathy for anybody who says this is
another case of "innocently walking down the street while black".
There was a homicide but no intent to kill thus manslaughter AT THE
VERY MOST.
Fuck, but you are ignorant of the facts.

Cops don't have the right to take people off the streets who aren't
doing anything illegal.
The hold he used that killed Garner was PROHIBITED by his own department.

You keep saying resisting arrest? Arrest for what? Garner wasn't doing
anything illegal at the time.
--
Trump: "I'm rich." (* but you can't see my taxes.)
"I'm smart." (* but you can't see my grades.)
"I'm totally exonerated." (* but you can't see the report.)
RichA
2019-08-04 18:41:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by EGK
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
It would be interesting to see if Rich felt the same if a black cop had
choked a white "loosey" seller to death.... I imagine that would REALLY
outrage him with a black man putting his hands on a white guy, his
"racial better"!!
It's obvious to anyone watching the video that the cops used excessive
force. On the other hand, Garner did resist and refused to be handcuffed.
Everybody is so damned confrontational, both cops and criminals. Garner
would still be alive if he had cooperated.
Which is WHY so many of them (that, and the fact so many ARE involved in criminal activity) end-up like they do. Plus, I HATE armchair policemen who can't even fathom the kind of threats these cops face all the time. Do you know how easy it is to get hurt if you don't immediately subdue these criminals?
RichA
2019-08-04 18:38:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp?
You can't be that naive. You try to f--- over the government on taxes for vices, you are barking up the wrong tree as Al Capone found out. It's one of the worst crimes (in their minds) because you are cutting into their money.
Ed Stasiak
2019-08-04 18:52:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
RichA
Adam H. Kerman
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp?  
You can't be that naive.  You try to f--- over the government on taxes for
vices, you are barking up the wrong tree as Al Capone found out.  It's one
of the worst crimes (in their minds) because you are cutting into their money.
As I mentioned in the post above, the articles mention “untaxed” cigarets
but it’s unclear if the guy was buying smokes from the store (and thus paying
the tax) to resell them for a small profit or if he was selling stolen cigarets
without the state tax stamp?

I suspect it might be the later, as otherwise why keep bringing up “untaxed”?
anim8rfsk
2019-08-04 19:25:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
RichA
Adam H. Kerman
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp?
You can't be that naive. You try to f--- over the government on taxes for
vices, you are barking up the wrong tree as Al Capone found out.It's one
of the worst crimes (in their minds) because you are cutting into their money.
As I mentioned in the post above, the articles mention “untaxed” cigarets
but it’s unclear if the guy was buying smokes from the store (and thus paying
the tax) to resell them for a small profit or if he was selling stolen cigarets
without the state tax stamp?
I suspect it might be the later, as otherwise why keep bringing up “untaxed”?
Because that's where the law against single cigarette sales comes from.
Loosies don't have tax stamps. It's illegal to sell cigarettes in quantities
smaller than a pack. Apparently there's a huge market for 'counterfiet'
ciggies as well as stolen ciggies and ciggies from tax free areas.

I agree that it probably shouldn't be illegal to buy a pack and break it up
and sell them individually, but it *is* - mostly I guess because there's no
way to tell where a loose came from.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
The Horny Goat
2019-08-05 01:01:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 21:52:17 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
You are completely missing it - the whole point of the stamp on the
tobacco package is to prove the MANUFACTURER'S taxes (normally paid by
the manufacturer and included in the price you pay) has been paid.

Minus the stamp it HASN'T been paid and is thus not legal to sell. The
crime in this case is by the vendor not the final buyer.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-05 16:02:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
It's a fucking tax law. Why should the fucking tax law be on the books
that makes it a crime for selling cigarettes lacking a tax stamp? Note
that he'd already paid all taxes on the cigarettes upon buying the whole
package.
Good you be just a tiny bit sympathetic, Rich? It was a fucking
victimless crime, unless you're very concerned about New York City's
inability to collect sufficient sin taxes.
You are completely missing it - the whole point of the stamp on the
tobacco package is to prove the MANUFACTURER'S taxes (normally paid by
the manufacturer and included in the price you pay) has been paid.
I have no idea how it works in Canada, but it's one of the few taxes
that resemble VAT that we have in this country. It's paid by the
wholesaler for resale of cigarette packs in a municipality with a stamp
tax ordinance.
Post by The Horny Goat
Minus the stamp it HASN'T been paid and is thus not legal to sell. The
crime in this case is by the vendor not the final buyer.
I am aware that it's illegal to sell untaxed cigarettes. That's why I
keep emphasizing that he violated a tax law.
David Johnston
2019-08-05 13:52:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
A man with his record is unemployable. Petty crime at the least becomes
the only way to get by.
BTR1701
2019-08-05 15:09:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
A man with his record is unemployable.
And whose fault is that?
shawn
2019-08-05 17:30:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by David Johnston
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
A man with his record is unemployable.
And whose fault is that?
Does it matter? Unless you are going to make the punishment for every
serious crime death then those convicted criminals will face a
lifetime of difficulties because of that conviction. That's true
whether they are hardened criminal with no hope of redemption or
someone that made a really bad decision (probably as a young man.)
Adam H. Kerman
2019-08-05 17:41:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by shawn
Post by BTR1701
Post by David Johnston
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
A man with his record is unemployable.
And whose fault is that?
Does it matter? Unless you are going to make the punishment for every
serious crime death then those convicted criminals will face a
lifetime of difficulties because of that conviction. That's true
whether they are hardened criminal with no hope of redemption or
someone that made a really bad decision (probably as a young man.)
What if an employer knowingly hires an ex-con, who then commits a crime
on the job similar to what he's done in the past? The employer is liable.

Wasn't that how the Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church became liable for
huge settlements?

Say someone mugged someone in the past. Can he be hired for a job in
which he's never alone with anyone else? Even if a retailer keeps the
guy entirely in the stock room, there are still unobserved corners of
the stock room in which other employees could be threatened by him.

If he's ever forged a check, he cannot be hired in future for any job
involving money, not even bookkeeping if he's capable of that work.

What do you expect an employer to do? Anybody can learn to be a driver,
of kids on a bus, taxi, delivery, or Lyft or Uber, but the company gets
sued if it failed to learn the criminal background of one of its drivers
who then commits a violent act.
BTR1701
2019-08-05 18:24:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by shawn
Post by BTR1701
Post by David Johnston
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
A man with his record is unemployable.
And whose fault is that?
Does it matter? Unless you are going to make the punishment for every
serious crime death then those convicted criminals will face a
lifetime of difficulties because of that conviction.
Seems to me that's a good reason to choose not to do crime in the first
place.
David Johnston
2019-08-05 18:30:26 UTC
Reply
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Post by BTR1701
Post by shawn
Post by BTR1701
Post by David Johnston
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
A man with his record is unemployable.
And whose fault is that?
Does it matter? Unless you are going to make the punishment for every
serious crime death then those convicted criminals will face a
lifetime of difficulties because of that conviction.
Seems to me that's a good reason to choose not to do crime in the first
place.
And yet how many people haven't tried an illegal substance in their youth?
shawn
2019-08-05 18:34:38 UTC
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Post by BTR1701
Post by shawn
Post by BTR1701
Post by David Johnston
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
A man with his record is unemployable.
And whose fault is that?
Does it matter? Unless you are going to make the punishment for every
serious crime death then those convicted criminals will face a
lifetime of difficulties because of that conviction.
Seems to me that's a good reason to choose not to do crime in the first
place.
How many people think through the consequences first? The people that
do think about are either going for a big payoff or won't commit the
crimes. The others either don't care or don't really think they have
options.
trotsky
2019-08-05 18:35:15 UTC
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Post by BTR1701
Post by shawn
Post by BTR1701
Post by David Johnston
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
A man with his record is unemployable.
And whose fault is that?
Does it matter? Unless you are going to make the punishment for every
serious crime death then those convicted criminals will face a
lifetime of difficulties because of that conviction.
Seems to me that's a good reason to choose not to do crime in the first
place.
That would be cruel and unusual punishment. Why do you hate America?
Ed Stasiak
2019-08-05 18:45:57 UTC
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Post by shawn
shawn
BTR1701
And whose fault is that?
Does it matter? Unless you are going to make the punishment for every
serious crime death then those convicted criminals will face a lifetime
of difficulties because of that conviction. That's true whether they are
hardened criminal with no hope of redemption or someone that made
a really bad decision (probably as a young man.)
This guy had already made _30_ “bad decisions” that had resulted in his
arrest and getting tossed in jail, in fact he was _still out on bail_ for the
last “bad decision” he made only a month of two prior.

At what point are people to be held responsible for their own actions?
David Johnston
2019-08-05 18:29:07 UTC
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Post by BTR1701
Post by David Johnston
Post by RichA
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49200240
A man with his record is unemployable.
And whose fault is that?
The question was "why don't they just obey the law". The answer is
"that option closed off for him a long time ago">
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