Discussion:
Judaism? It's actually based on several blatant elements of deception.
(too old to reply)
Hans
2018-04-07 23:28:34 UTC
Permalink
First you must understand and accept that Jews lie.

They are not God's chosen.

They have deliberately lied about many things Christian, and
continue to do so.

No Jews were ever taken on Noah's Ark.

Where did Jews "return" from if God drowned them all?
IAM
2018-04-08 00:01:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans
First you must understand and accept that Jews lie.
Jews are a tribe, not the 12 lve tribes of Israel, please keep this 'always' in mind.
thanks

IAM
Post by Hans
They are not God's chosen.
They have deliberately lied about many things Christian, and
continue to do so.
No Jews were ever taken on Noah's Ark.
Where did Jews "return" from if God drowned them all?
Siri Cruise
2018-04-08 01:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans
First you must understand and accept that Jews lie.
They are not God's chosen.
They have deliberately lied about many things Christian, and
continue to do so.
No Jews were ever taken on Noah's Ark.
Well, duh. Jews are descendants of Judah and Benjamin descendants of Abraham
descendant of Noah. There were no jews or hebrews or israelites at that time.
Just the descendants of Adam and Eve.
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
I'm saving up to buy the Donald a blue stone This post / \
from Metebelis 3. All praise the Great Don! insults Islam. Mohammed
t***@gmail.com
2018-04-08 01:15:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans
First you must understand and accept that Jews lie.
They are not God's chosen.
They have deliberately lied about many things Christian, and
continue to do so.
No Jews were ever taken on Noah's Ark.
Where did Jews "return" from if God drowned them all?
Refraining anti-semitic territory I will say the Jews historically have been good at math, record keeping and numbers. One of the 5 books of the Torah is even translated, NUMBERS.

But through the 'magic' of modern science and radio-carbon-dating, science has shown the Biblical record of the age of humans (7000 plus or minus)- as recorded by the genealogy of the Jews from Abraham back to Adam -is off by a factor of 10 or 100 times.

So while there may be excellent storytelling, moral lessons and great myths in the Hebrew biblical account, the god of Abraham simply can't do basic math. And if god can't do math, he is in no position to declare one race chosen over another.

Sorry Jews, you're in the same boat as we goyim. Now let's all try to get along and work out our differences peacefully, gracefully with compassion while we still have time.


------------

No Jews were harmed during the telling of a universal truth.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1019452/crazycredits
BTR1701
2018-04-08 03:12:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Hans
First you must understand and accept that Jews lie.
They are not God's chosen.
They have deliberately lied about many things Christian, and
continue to do so.
No Jews were ever taken on Noah's Ark.
Where did Jews "return" from if God drowned them all?
Refraining anti-semitic territory I will say the Jews historically have been
good at math, record keeping and numbers. One of the 5 books of the Torah is
even translated, NUMBERS.
But through the 'magic' of modern science and radio-carbon-dating, science
has shown the Biblical record of the age of humans (7000 plus or minus)- as
recorded by the genealogy of the Jews from Abraham back to Adam -is off by a
factor of 10 or 100 times.
So while there may be excellent storytelling, moral lessons and great myths
in the Hebrew biblical account, the god of Abraham simply can't do basic
math. And if god can't do math, he is in no position to declare one race
chosen over another.
Why? God's ability to choose to like one thing over another wouldn't be
any more dependent on an ability to do math than mine is.

I don't have to be good at calculus to prefer mint chocolate chip ice
cream over rocky road; likewise, god wouldn't need to be a mathematician
to prefer Jews over everyone else.
t***@gmail.com
2018-04-08 03:35:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Hans
First you must understand and accept that Jews lie.
They are not God's chosen.
They have deliberately lied about many things Christian, and
continue to do so.
No Jews were ever taken on Noah's Ark.
Where did Jews "return" from if God drowned them all?
Refraining anti-semitic territory I will say the Jews historically have been
good at math, record keeping and numbers. One of the 5 books of the Torah is
even translated, NUMBERS.
But through the 'magic' of modern science and radio-carbon-dating, science
has shown the Biblical record of the age of humans (7000 plus or minus)- as
recorded by the genealogy of the Jews from Abraham back to Adam -is off by a
factor of 10 or 100 times.
So while there may be excellent storytelling, moral lessons and great myths
in the Hebrew biblical account, the god of Abraham simply can't do basic
math. And if god can't do math, he is in no position to declare one race
chosen over another.
Why? God's ability to choose to like one thing over another wouldn't be
any more dependent on an ability to do math than mine is.
I don't have to be good at calculus to prefer mint chocolate chip ice
cream over rocky road; likewise, god wouldn't need to be a mathematician
to prefer Jews over everyone else.
The Jews as God's chosen people, has been accepted as dogma in the major world's religions, because god is omnipotent and unerring. God's decisions are always correct and righteous because he can't make a mistake. The inspired word of God from an inerrant deity can't be disputed.

Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient deity we were lead to believe.

It's simple to understand. The omnipotent holy one who set the stars and planets in clockwork synchronicity with the precision of a watchmaker, can't do basic math. (count the number of years backwards from the time of Abraham to Adam as recorded in the sacred holy unerring word of God, add that number to the years from Abraham to the present. Seven thousand years is what the word of God tells us is the amount of time humans have lived on planet earth)

If the magic Biblical number of years (spoken from the lips of god) humanity has existed on earth don't match the empirical scientific number, then something is wrong. If one divine edict can legitimately be question, then the others MUST be questioned also.

So it comes down to, do you trust empirical scientific realities or do you believe in magic? God's "chosen people" myth is based on magic.
BTR1701
2018-04-08 04:42:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Post by t***@gmail.com
It's simple to understand. The omnipotent holy one who set the stars and
planets in clockwork synchronicity with the precision of a watchmaker, can't
do basic math.
Or the people who transcribed it all misplaced a decimal.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-04-08 15:02:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
It's simple to understand. The omnipotent holy one who set the stars and
planets in clockwork synchronicity with the precision of a watchmaker, can't
do basic math.
Or the people who transcribed it all misplaced a decimal.
Or, the Torah is not, never was, never will be "history". The word means
"teaching", not "history", but mime knows that.
suzeeq
2018-04-08 15:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
It's simple to understand. The omnipotent holy one who set the stars and
planets in clockwork synchronicity with the precision of a watchmaker, can't
do basic math.
Or the people who transcribed it all misplaced a decimal.
Or, the Torah is not, never was, never will be "history". The word means
"teaching", not "history", but mime knows that.
Well it's the history of a tribe of people, but it shouldn't be mistaken
for facts. More like a historical novel, with some true things in it,
but mostly fiction.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-04-08 15:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
It's simple to understand. The omnipotent holy one who set the
stars and planets in clockwork synchronicity with the precision of
a watchmaker, can't do basic math.
Or the people who transcribed it all misplaced a decimal.
Or, the Torah is not, never was, never will be "history". The word means
"teaching", not "history", but mime knows that.
Well it's the history of a tribe of people, but it shouldn't be mistaken
for facts. More like a historical novel, with some true things in it,
but mostly fiction.
Most historical novels aren't printed along with rabbinical commentary.

It's meant to be a starting point for discussion and interpretation, or
at least that's what it quickly became.
suzeeq
2018-04-08 16:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
It's simple to understand. The omnipotent holy one who set the
stars and planets in clockwork synchronicity with the precision of
a watchmaker, can't do basic math.
Or the people who transcribed it all misplaced a decimal.
Or, the Torah is not, never was, never will be "history". The word means
"teaching", not "history", but mime knows that.
Well it's the history of a tribe of people, but it shouldn't be mistaken
for facts. More like a historical novel, with some true things in it,
but mostly fiction.
Most historical novels aren't printed along with rabbinical commentary.
That's the Talmud. But I get what you mean, some people take it for truth.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's meant to be a starting point for discussion and interpretation, or
at least that's what it quickly became.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-04-08 16:31:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent,
omniscient deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
It's simple to understand. The omnipotent holy one who set the
stars and planets in clockwork synchronicity with the precision of
a watchmaker, can't do basic math.
Or the people who transcribed it all misplaced a decimal.
Or, the Torah is not, never was, never will be "history". The word means
"teaching", not "history", but mime knows that.
Well it's the history of a tribe of people, but it shouldn't be mistaken
for facts. More like a historical novel, with some true things in it,
but mostly fiction.
Most historical novels aren't printed along with rabbinical commentary.
That's the Talmud. But I get what you mean, some people take it for truth.
The Talmud is specific rabbinical writings, the early one written in
Jerusalem and the later one written in Babylon. One part is biblical
commentary, the second part is commentary on the commentary.

The rabbinical writings have continued over the centuries, of course.

I'm just saying that if you pick up a Bible (written in vernacular 'cuz
my Hebrew is nonexistent) in Temple, the footnotes and commentary are 20
times longer than the text.
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's meant to be a starting point for discussion and interpretation, or
at least that's what it quickly became.
t***@gmail.com
2018-04-08 16:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent,
omniscient deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
It's simple to understand. The omnipotent holy one who set the
stars and planets in clockwork synchronicity with the precision of
a watchmaker, can't do basic math.
Or the people who transcribed it all misplaced a decimal.
Or, the Torah is not, never was, never will be "history". The word means
"teaching", not "history", but mime knows that.
Well it's the history of a tribe of people, but it shouldn't be mistaken
for facts. More like a historical novel, with some true things in it,
but mostly fiction.
Most historical novels aren't printed along with rabbinical commentary.
That's the Talmud. But I get what you mean, some people take it for truth.
The Talmud is specific rabbinical writings, the early one written in
Jerusalem and the later one written in Babylon. One part is biblical
commentary, the second part is commentary on the commentary.
The rabbinical writings have continued over the centuries, of course.
I'm just saying that if you pick up a Bible (written in vernacular 'cuz
my Hebrew is nonexistent) in Temple, the footnotes and commentary are 20
times longer than the text.
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's meant to be a starting point for discussion and interpretation, or
at least that's what it quickly became.
Sounds analogous to Strongs Exhaustive Bible Concordance except the student gets the pleasure of not only dealing with the Hebrew language, also has to wrestle with Greek and Old English.

It sometimes takes years of intense study to fully understand some concepts. It did for me, until I discovered remedial math books.

--------------

"Find Somebody To Love"

suzeeq
2018-04-08 16:50:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent,
omniscient deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
It's simple to understand. The omnipotent holy one who set the
stars and planets in clockwork synchronicity with the precision of
a watchmaker, can't do basic math.
Or the people who transcribed it all misplaced a decimal.
Or, the Torah is not, never was, never will be "history". The word means
"teaching", not "history", but mime knows that.
Well it's the history of a tribe of people, but it shouldn't be mistaken
for facts. More like a historical novel, with some true things in it,
but mostly fiction.
Most historical novels aren't printed along with rabbinical commentary.
That's the Talmud. But I get what you mean, some people take it for truth.
The Talmud is specific rabbinical writings, the early one written in
Jerusalem and the later one written in Babylon. One part is biblical
commentary, the second part is commentary on the commentary.
The rabbinical writings have continued over the centuries, of course.
I'm just saying that if you pick up a Bible (written in vernacular 'cuz
my Hebrew is nonexistent) in Temple, the footnotes and commentary are 20
times longer than the text.
Okay, that's different from the Old Testatment which is somewhat
equivalent since I know the Torah is only the first five books. Churches
have bible study groups which only study annd discuss the New Testament.

I was getting my 'history' analogy from a class I took in college called
The Bible as Literature, counted for either an English or Theology
credit. It was quite a different look at the Old Testament in particular.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-04-08 17:15:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent,
omniscient deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
It's simple to understand. The omnipotent holy one who set the
stars and planets in clockwork synchronicity with the precision of
a watchmaker, can't do basic math.
Or the people who transcribed it all misplaced a decimal.
Or, the Torah is not, never was, never will be "history". The word means
"teaching", not "history", but mime knows that.
Well it's the history of a tribe of people, but it shouldn't be mistaken
for facts. More like a historical novel, with some true things in it,
but mostly fiction.
Most historical novels aren't printed along with rabbinical commentary.
That's the Talmud. But I get what you mean, some people take it for truth.
The Talmud is specific rabbinical writings, the early one written in
Jerusalem and the later one written in Babylon. One part is biblical
commentary, the second part is commentary on the commentary.
The rabbinical writings have continued over the centuries, of course.
I'm just saying that if you pick up a Bible (written in vernacular 'cuz
my Hebrew is nonexistent) in Temple, the footnotes and commentary are 20
times longer than the text.
Okay, that's different from the Old Testatment which is somewhat
equivalent since I know the Torah is only the first five books. Churches
have bible study groups which only study annd discuss the New Testament.
Hah! You really need a scorecard to keep track of which denomination
includes which books in the Bible. For instance, the Bible from the
Jewish perspective (which includes the Torah) never includes Maccabes
(I Maccabees is supposed to be decent history according to Biblical
scholars), but many Christian denominations include I Maccabees in the
Old Testament.
Post by suzeeq
I was getting my 'history' analogy from a class I took in college called
The Bible as Literature, counted for either an English or Theology
credit. It was quite a different look at the Old Testament in particular.
It's perfectly reasonable to study the Bible as literature. I just can't
read it without the footnotes.
BTR1701
2018-04-08 19:50:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Yes, I was banished from Sunday school and ordered never to return for
the crime of 'asking too many questions which were undermining the faith
of the other children'.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
It's simple to understand. The omnipotent holy one who set the stars and
planets in clockwork synchronicity with the precision of a watchmaker,
can't do basic math.
Or the people who transcribed it all misplaced a decimal.
Or, the Torah is not, never was, never will be "history". The word means
"teaching", not "history", but mime knows that.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-04-08 19:52:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Yes, I was banished from Sunday school and ordered never to return for
the crime of 'asking too many questions which were undermining the faith
of the other children'.
Were there enough heathens to organize a baseball game in nice weather?
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .
Jim G.
2018-04-08 21:09:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Yes, I was banished from Sunday school and ordered never to return for
the crime of 'asking too many questions which were undermining the faith
of the other children'.
That reminds me of the protagonist in CONTACT. When I first heard her
say it, it reminded me of my own childhood -- and of my introduction to
a very cool and very, very smart Jesuit. For better or worse, they
didn't give up on me and Jesuits continue to impress the heck out of me
to this day.
--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
"Oh, my god. That's tragic. It's like a Hallmark movie. But with
tentacles." - Dean Winchester, SUPERNATURAL
anim8rfsk
2018-04-08 22:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
Ooooo! The nuns must have punished you for that one!
Yes, I was banished from Sunday school and ordered never to return for
the crime of 'asking too many questions which were undermining the faith
of the other children'.
I'm sure I would have been if I hadn't bailed first.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Jim G.
2018-04-08 21:09:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising that
omniscience with regard to the lives of others.

To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they didn't.
Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
"Oh, my god. That's tragic. It's like a Hallmark movie. But with
tentacles." - Dean Winchester, SUPERNATURAL
BTR1701
2018-04-08 21:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising that
omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they didn't.
Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set and
a free will is an illusion.

If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do I
really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer when
I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do so, but
from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
suzeeq
2018-04-09 00:45:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising that
omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they didn't.
Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set and
a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do I
really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer when
I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do so, but
from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-04-09 01:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising that
omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they didn't.
Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set and
a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do I
really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer when
I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do so, but
from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
The universe/space-time continuum/nature was created for life to exist
in. Time and space were created at the same moment. God exists entirely
outside the natural realm, at the beginning and at the end, which from
God's perspective, are the same blips. If there is no intelligent
design, then God can take a peak inside at any moment or at all moments
to learn what will happen.

That's a theory of religion, anyway.

For all we know, God's created an infinite number of universes, or ours
is just the leftover bits after another was created.
Obveeus
2018-04-09 02:34:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising
that omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they
didn't. Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set
and a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do
I really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer
when I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do
so, but from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
suzeeq
2018-04-09 14:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising
that omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they
didn't. Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set
and a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do
I really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer
when I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do
so, but from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
Obveeus
2018-04-09 14:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by suzeeq
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising
that omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they
didn't. Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set
and a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35,
do I really have any other option than to marry a woman named
Jennifer when I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm
choosing to do so, but from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all
made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'.  BTR1701 is right about
this.  If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity
has no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than
the opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will
ever make is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors.
Either way, if there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no
'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
Nope...just a lot of wanking on his part to try and explain that people
have free will even though God already knows every choice that will ever
be made. Either way, the wanking doesn't negate that a person is now in
a position where they cannot actually change any outcome...unless it was
predetermined that they would.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-04-09 14:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent,
omniscient deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising
that omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they
didn't. Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set
and a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do
I really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer
when I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do
so, but from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
suzeeq
2018-04-09 15:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent,
omniscient deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising
that omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they
didn't. Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set
and a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do
I really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer
when I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do
so, but from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
That's fine, it still makes more sense.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-04-09 16:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent,
omniscient deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising
that omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they
didn't. Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set
and a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do
I really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer
when I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do
so, but from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
That's fine, it still makes more sense.
I think that makes Thomas Aquinas the first science fiction writer, since
he conceived of time not existing before the creation of the universe,
and "outside" the space-time continuum (where God exists) and therefore
the possibility of multiple universes.
suzeeq
2018-04-09 16:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent,
omniscient deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising
that omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they
didn't. Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set
and a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do
I really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer
when I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do
so, but from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
That's fine, it still makes more sense.
I think that makes Thomas Aquinas the first science fiction writer, since
he conceived of time not existing before the creation of the universe,
and "outside" the space-time continuum (where God exists) and therefore
the possibility of multiple universes.
Hmm, that sounds like it.
Jim G.
2018-04-09 19:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
"Oh, my god. That's tragic. It's like a Hallmark movie. But with
tentacles." -- Dean Winchester, SUPERNATURAL
suzeeq
2018-04-09 20:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-04-09 20:25:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
anim8rfsk
2018-04-09 20:33:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
When I was in college, CS LEWIS MAN OF VISION was the second most
popular graffiti, beyond WHO IS JOHN GALT, until people started
overwriting it to read LEWIS CARROLL MAN OF VISION.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
suzeeq
2018-04-09 20:38:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
Maybe CS Lewis? I think he wrote some theological books as well as Narnis.
anim8rfsk
2018-04-09 21:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
Maybe CS Lewis? I think he wrote some theological books as well as Narnis.
Mmmm, delicious SuzzeQ ice cream for me!
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
suzeeq
2018-04-10 01:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
Maybe CS Lewis? I think he wrote some theological books as well as Narnis.
Mmmm, delicious SuzzeQ ice cream for me!
Think about that statement at bit, will you...?
Obveeus
2018-04-10 02:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'.  BTR1701 is
right about
this.  If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then
humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors.
Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and
Lewis both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
Maybe CS Lewis? I think he wrote some theological books as well as Narnis.
Mmmm, delicious SuzzeQ ice cream for me!
Think about that statement at bit, will you...?
Is this the kind of ice cream treat where you can hold it upside down
and it will stay in the cup?
suzeeq
2018-04-10 02:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is
right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then
humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors.
Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and
Lewis both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
Maybe CS Lewis? I think he wrote some theological books as well as Narnis.
Mmmm, delicious SuzzeQ ice cream for me!
Think about that statement at bit, will you...?
Is this the kind of ice cream treat where you can hold it upside down
and it will stay in the cup?
That's not where my mind went.
anim8rfsk
2018-04-10 02:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either
way,
if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
Maybe CS Lewis? I think he wrote some theological books as well as Narnis.
Mmmm, delicious SuzzeQ ice cream for me!
Think about that statement at bit, will you...?
"Is it made from real SuzeeQs?"
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Obveeus
2018-04-10 02:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by suzeeq
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either
way,
if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
Maybe CS Lewis? I think he wrote some theological books as well as Narnis.
Mmmm, delicious SuzzeQ ice cream for me!
Think about that statement at bit, will you...?
"Is it made from real SuzeeQs?"
Ice cream for zombies?
suzeeq
2018-04-10 15:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by suzeeq
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either
way,
if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
Maybe CS Lewis? I think he wrote some theological books as well as Narnis.
Mmmm, delicious SuzzeQ ice cream for me!
Think about that statement at bit, will you...?
"Is it made from real SuzeeQs?"
Noooo.

The Horny Goat
2018-04-10 00:02:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
Maybe CS Lewis? I think he wrote some theological books as well as Narnis.
Yup - and had the indecency to die on the same day as JFK.....
Jim G.
2018-04-10 00:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by suzeeq
Post by Adam H. Kerman
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
Maybe CS Lewis? I think he wrote some theological books as well as Narnis.
Yup - and had the indecency to die on the same day as JFK.....
And Aldous Huxley!
--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
"Oh, my god. That's tragic. It's like a Hallmark movie. But with
tentacles." -- Dean Winchester, SUPERNATURAL
Jim G.
2018-04-09 21:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
C.S., as others have pointed out. A pretty smart cookie.
--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
"Oh, my god. That's tragic. It's like a Hallmark movie. But with
tentacles." -- Dean Winchester, SUPERNATURAL
The Horny Goat
2018-04-10 00:42:34 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 16:57:28 -0500, "Jim G."
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
He didn't tell you who Lewis was; I'm assuming not the guy who once
worked with Martin.
C.S., as others have pointed out. A pretty smart cookie.
You may have noticed that he and JRR Tolkien were good personal
friends despite their religious differences and each has books
dedicated to the other.
Jim G.
2018-04-09 21:57:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by Jim G.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by suzeeq
Post by Obveeus
Post by suzeeq
I don't think god's that powerful.
You have a weird definition of 'All powerful'. BTR1701 is right about
this. If GOD knows everything that will ever happen, then humanity has
no actual 'free will'...certainly not on any greater level than the
opposing extreme which claims that every decision a human will ever make
is determined by chemical/biological/atom level factors. Either way, if
there is no level of uncertainty, then there is no 'choice'.
I like Jim's explanation on this.
The space-time continuum thing is from St. Thomas Aquinas.
It's worth noting (to me, at least) that I did say: "Aquinas and Lewis
both go into this latter theory in great detail."
But you explained/summarize the theory and that's what I read.
Understood. I just didn't want anyone to accuse me of not citing my
sources. :)
--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
"Oh, my god. That's tragic. It's like a Hallmark movie. But with
tentacles." -- Dean Winchester, SUPERNATURAL
BTR1701
2018-04-09 04:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by suzeeq
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising that
omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they didn't.
Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set and
a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do I
really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer when
I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do so, but
from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
Heresy!
trotsky
2018-04-09 09:10:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by suzeeq
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising that
omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they didn't.
Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set and
a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do I
really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer when
I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do so, but
from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
Heresy!
One of Klipsch's best speakers.
suzeeq
2018-04-09 14:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by suzeeq
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising that
omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they didn't.
Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set and
a free will is an illusion.
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do I
really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer when
I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do so, but
from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
I don't think god's that powerful.
Heresy!
Yeah, I know. :)
Jim G.
2018-04-09 02:08:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent, omniscient
deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising that
omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they didn't.
Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set and
a free will is an illusion.
Unless, perhaps, God knows the person well enough to know exactly how a
given person will choose to exercise his or her free will. This
explanation stems from the fact that an omniscient God will know each of
us as well -- if not better -- than we know ourselves. This is my
favorite non-timey-wimey perspective on the matter.
Post by BTR1701
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do I
really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer when
I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do so, but
from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
Another possibility -- a timey-wimey one -- is that God exists outside
of space-time as we know it, in which case He is simply capable of
seeing everything -- past, present and future -- all at once. To Him,
"yesterday," "now" and "tomorrow" hold no significant difference to His
omniscient self. In this interpretation, God would know that
five-year-old you was going to marry Jennifer at 35 because God also
knows the 75-year-old you at that same moment and knows what happened to
you 40 years earlier. IOW, at this very moment in time, He knows all
three versions of you. So by knowing that you're going to marry a woman
named Jennifer when you're 35, He isn't forcing things on the five- or
35-year-old you, but is rather seeing the history of the 75-year-old at
the same moment that the 35-year-old is doing his free will thing.

Aquinas and Lewis both go into this latter theory in great detail. In
fact, since this is hardly a new concept, the entire thing has pretty
much already been torn apart and analyzed to death by any number of
people and cultures over the years -- including a lot of Christian
theologians and apologists and scholars in the past 2,000 years alone.

For my part, I recall being exposed to this for the first time in a high
school class, and while I can't remember everything without cheating
quite a bit, I do recall coming to realize that it's not the non-starter
that many would have you believe.
--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
"Oh, my god. That's tragic. It's like a Hallmark movie. But with
tentacles." - Dean Winchester, SUPERNATURAL
BTR1701
2018-04-09 04:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent,
omniscient deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising that
omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they didn't.
Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set and
free will is an illusion.
Unless, perhaps, God knows the person well enough to know exactly how a
given person will choose to exercise his or her free will. This
explanation stems from the fact that an omniscient God will know each of
us as well -- if not better -- than we know ourselves. This is my
favorite non-timey-wimey perspective on the matter.
Post by BTR1701
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do I
really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer when
I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do so, but
from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
Another possibility -- a timey-wimey one -- is that God exists outside
of space-time as we know it, in which case He is simply capable of
seeing everything -- past, present and future -- all at once. To Him,
"yesterday," "now" and "tomorrow" hold no significant difference to His
omniscient self. In this interpretation, God would know that
five-year-old you was going to marry Jennifer at 35 because God also
knows the 75-year-old you at that same moment and knows what happened to
you 40 years earlier. IOW, at this very moment in time, He knows all
three versions of you. So by knowing that you're going to marry a woman
named Jennifer when you're 35, He isn't forcing things on the five- or
35-year-old you, but is rather seeing the history of the 75-year-old at
the same moment that the 35-year-old is doing his free will thing.
Aquinas and Lewis both go into this latter theory in great detail. In
fact, since this is hardly a new concept, the entire thing has pretty
much already been torn apart and analyzed to death by any number of
people and cultures over the years -- including a lot of Christian
theologians and apologists and scholars in the past 2,000 years alone.
For my part, I recall being exposed to this for the first time in a high
school class, and while I can't remember everything without cheating
quite a bit, I do recall coming to realize that it's not the non-starter
that many would have you believe.
Yes, I've read a lot of that, too, but it still all boils down to me
never having any other option than Jennifer for a wife. (Even with all
those backups in my pocket.)
Jim G.
2018-04-09 19:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by Jim G.
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Unless god got the math wrong. Then god is not the omnipotent,
omniscient deity we were lead to believe.
Well, free will is incompatible with an omniscient god, anyway.
It's only incompatible if that omniscient god insists on exercising that
omniscience with regard to the lives of others.
To look at it another way, my parents could have kept me safe from
almost every bump and scrape and bruise that I collected growing up
since they had the power to keep me locked up at home. But they didn't.
Having power doesn't have to mean using that power.
Just the fact of god knowing the future means that the future is set and
free will is an illusion.
Unless, perhaps, God knows the person well enough to know exactly how a
given person will choose to exercise his or her free will. This
explanation stems from the fact that an omniscient God will know each of
us as well -- if not better -- than we know ourselves. This is my
favorite non-timey-wimey perspective on the matter.
Post by BTR1701
If god knows I'm going to marry a woman named Jennifer when I'm 35, do I
really have any other option than to marry a woman named Jennifer when
I'm 35? It may seem from my perspective that I'm choosing to do so, but
from a cosmic perspective, my choices are all made for me.
Another possibility -- a timey-wimey one -- is that God exists outside
of space-time as we know it, in which case He is simply capable of
seeing everything -- past, present and future -- all at once. To Him,
"yesterday," "now" and "tomorrow" hold no significant difference to His
omniscient self. In this interpretation, God would know that
five-year-old you was going to marry Jennifer at 35 because God also
knows the 75-year-old you at that same moment and knows what happened to
you 40 years earlier. IOW, at this very moment in time, He knows all
three versions of you. So by knowing that you're going to marry a woman
named Jennifer when you're 35, He isn't forcing things on the five- or
35-year-old you, but is rather seeing the history of the 75-year-old at
the same moment that the 35-year-old is doing his free will thing.
Aquinas and Lewis both go into this latter theory in great detail. In
fact, since this is hardly a new concept, the entire thing has pretty
much already been torn apart and analyzed to death by any number of
people and cultures over the years -- including a lot of Christian
theologians and apologists and scholars in the past 2,000 years alone.
For my part, I recall being exposed to this for the first time in a high
school class, and while I can't remember everything without cheating
quite a bit, I do recall coming to realize that it's not the non-starter
that many would have you believe.
Yes, I've read a lot of that, too, but it still all boils down to me
never having any other option than Jennifer for a wife. (Even with all
those backups in my pocket.)
Nope. First, again, having the ability to affect the life of another
doesn't mean that you're gonna choose to affect that life of another.
This much is true whether we're talking about gods or men.

And second, once you accept omnipotence and omniscience as part of the
package, then the outside-of-time approach in terms of knowledge of
events is pretty darn hard to counter.
--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
"Oh, my god. That's tragic. It's like a Hallmark movie. But with
tentacles." -- Dean Winchester, SUPERNATURAL
Adam H. Kerman
2018-04-08 14:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Hans
First you must understand and accept that Jews lie.
They are not God's chosen.
They have deliberately lied about many things Christian, and
continue to do so.
No Jews were ever taken on Noah's Ark.
Where did Jews "return" from if God drowned them all?
Refraining anti-semitic territory I will say the Jews historically have been
good at math, record keeping and numbers. One of the 5 books of the Torah is
even translated, NUMBERS.
But through the 'magic' of modern science and radio-carbon-dating, science
has shown the Biblical record of the age of humans (7000 plus or minus)- as
recorded by the genealogy of the Jews from Abraham back to Adam -is off by a
factor of 10 or 100 times.
So while there may be excellent storytelling, moral lessons and great myths
in the Hebrew biblical account, the god of Abraham simply can't do basic
math. And if god can't do math, he is in no position to declare one race
chosen over another.
Why? God's ability to choose to like one thing over another wouldn't be
any more dependent on an ability to do math than mine is.
I don't have to be good at calculus to prefer mint chocolate chip ice
cream over rocky road; likewise, god wouldn't need to be a mathematician
to prefer Jews over everyone else.
Fiddler on the Roof

Tevye [to God]: I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a
while, can't You choose someone else?
t***@gmail.com
2018-04-08 15:22:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Hans
First you must understand and accept that Jews lie.
They are not God's chosen.
They have deliberately lied about many things Christian, and
continue to do so.
No Jews were ever taken on Noah's Ark.
Where did Jews "return" from if God drowned them all?
Refraining anti-semitic territory I will say the Jews historically have been
good at math, record keeping and numbers. One of the 5 books of the Torah is
even translated, NUMBERS.
But through the 'magic' of modern science and radio-carbon-dating, science
has shown the Biblical record of the age of humans (7000 plus or minus)- as
recorded by the genealogy of the Jews from Abraham back to Adam -is off by a
factor of 10 or 100 times.
So while there may be excellent storytelling, moral lessons and great myths
in the Hebrew biblical account, the god of Abraham simply can't do basic
math. And if god can't do math, he is in no position to declare one race
chosen over another.
Why? God's ability to choose to like one thing over another wouldn't be
any more dependent on an ability to do math than mine is.
I don't have to be good at calculus to prefer mint chocolate chip ice
cream over rocky road; likewise, god wouldn't need to be a mathematician
to prefer Jews over everyone else.
Fiddler on the Roof
Tevye [to God]: I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a
while, can't You choose someone else?
Fiddler on the Roof, Tevye:

Because of our traditions, we've kept our balance for many, many years. For instance, we always keep our heads covered


///


LARRY, lying half-in, half-out of a rumpled sleeping bag. He stares at the ceiling, a damp washcloth pressed against his forehead. His face is flaming red.

ARTHUR: "Boy. You should've worn a hat."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1019452/mediaviewer/rm3392752128
A Serious Man
i***@gmail.com
2018-04-09 02:49:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans
First you must understand and accept that Jews lie.
They are not God's chosen.
Well Boyo, there are only 13 million Jews left in the world.
There are 2 billion Muslims. The Muslims have repeatedly sworn
to murder every Jewish man, woman and child on the planet.

The Muslims have committed hundreds of terrorist attacks
all over the world, they've murdered thousands of Americans
on American soil and they march in the streets screaming
"Death to America."

So far the Jews haven't done any of that. So, I
think I'll stick with the Jews.

Irish Mike
(Catholic)
Your Name
2018-04-09 21:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Judaism? It's actually based on several blatant elements of deception.
*ALL* religions are based on deception about fake gods and hypocritical
bollocks simply to make the religious leaders powerful and rich. It's
always been that way.
suzeeq
2018-04-10 01:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
Judaism? It's actually based on several blatant elements of deception.
*ALL* religions are based on deception about fake gods and hypocritical
bollocks simply to make the religious leaders powerful and rich. It's
always been that way.
Man created god, it wasn't the other way round.
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