Discussion:
Oxford Music Professors: Sheet Music is White Supremacy
Add Reply
BTR1701
2024-05-14 07:44:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Who knew that everyday when I sit down and engrave film scores for the
live-to-picture and historical archiving projects, I'm actually practicing
white supremacy.

Thank god we have radical leftist 'progressives' to make us aware of these
things!

------------------------
Staff members within the University of Oxford's music department have
deemed sheet music "colonialist" and have suggested ways to "decolonize"
the curriculum.

Professors said that music notation has not "shaken off its connection to
its colonial past" and that not rebranding it would be a "slap in the face"
for students of color, according to documents reviewed by the British
outlet The Telegraph.

The same faculty also reportedly questioned whether the current curriculum
was complicit in "white supremacy," pointing to the program's focus on
"white European music from the slave period"-- composers like Mozart and
Beethoven.

The professors further suggested that certain classical music skills-- like
playing the piano and conducting orchestral arrangements-- ought not to be
required because they structurally center "white European music" and cause
"students of color great distress".
Rhino
2024-05-14 13:49:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 14 May 2024 07:44:47 +0000
Post by BTR1701
Who knew that everyday when I sit down and engrave film scores for the
live-to-picture and historical archiving projects, I'm actually
practicing white supremacy.
Thank god we have radical leftist 'progressives' to make us aware of
these things!
------------------------
Staff members within the University of Oxford's music department have
deemed sheet music "colonialist" and have suggested ways to
"decolonize" the curriculum.
Professors said that music notation has not "shaken off its
connection to its colonial past" and that not rebranding it would be
a "slap in the face" for students of color, according to documents
reviewed by the British outlet The Telegraph.
The same faculty also reportedly questioned whether the current
curriculum was complicit in "white supremacy," pointing to the
program's focus on "white European music from the slave period"--
composers like Mozart and Beethoven.
The professors further suggested that certain classical music
skills-- like playing the piano and conducting orchestral
arrangements-- ought not to be required because they structurally
center "white European music" and cause "students of color great
distress".
These lunatics are literally trying to destroy literally every last
vestige of Western Civilization - and we're letting them, despite the
absurdity of their ideas. It's the Death of a Thousand Cuts approach
to destroying our culture and replacing it with something much MUCH
worse.

You should read Douglas Murray's The War on the West.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2024-05-16 06:30:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 14 May 2024 09:49:54 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
The professors further suggested that certain classical music
skills-- like playing the piano and conducting orchestral
arrangements-- ought not to be required because they structurally
center "white European music" and cause "students of color great
distress".
These lunatics are literally trying to destroy literally every last
vestige of Western Civilization - and we're letting them, despite the
absurdity of their ideas. It's the Death of a Thousand Cuts approach
to destroying our culture and replacing it with something much MUCH
worse.
You should read Douglas Murray's The War on the West.
Unfortunately I agree with you on this point - all sorts of
non-Western music can (and is) written on bass and treble staffs and
there is no particular element that denies non-Western music. Bottom
line is that the bass and treble clef system is used BECAUSE IT WORKS
EFFECTIVELY.

There's a reason countries in both East and West use Arabic numbers in
preference to Roman numerals you know. The bottom line is that Arab
numerals are far simpler to use than Roman numerals in complex
calculations

I'm not bowing to Mecca when I calculate using Arabic numerals you
know!
Adam H. Kerman
2024-05-16 11:10:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
. . .
There's a reason countries in both East and West use Arabic numbers in
preference to Roman numerals you know. The bottom line is that Arab
numerals are far simpler to use than Roman numerals in complex
calculations
I have never read how the Romans performed arithmetic.
Post by The Horny Goat
I'm not bowing to Mecca when I calculate using Arabic numerals you
know!
The Horny Goat
2024-05-17 07:41:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 16 May 2024 11:10:02 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
. . .
There's a reason countries in both East and West use Arabic numbers in
preference to Roman numerals you know. The bottom line is that Arab
numerals are far simpler to use than Roman numerals in complex
calculations
I have never read how the Romans performed arithmetic.
Post by The Horny Goat
I'm not bowing to Mecca when I calculate using Arabic numerals you
know!
As a former high school math teacher I know how to do basic math with
Roman numerals but no question Arabic is easier...
Adam H. Kerman
2024-05-17 16:12:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
. . .
There's a reason countries in both East and West use Arabic numbers in
preference to Roman numerals you know. The bottom line is that Arab
numerals are far simpler to use than Roman numerals in complex
calculations
I have never read how the Romans performed arithmetic.
Post by The Horny Goat
I'm not bowing to Mecca when I calculate using Arabic numerals you
know!
As a former high school math teacher I know how to do basic math with
Roman numerals but no question Arabic is easier...
That wasn't what I had wondered about.
The Horny Goat
2024-05-18 23:58:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 17 May 2024 16:12:16 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
As a former high school math teacher I know how to do basic math with
Roman numerals but no question Arabic is easier...
That wasn't what I had wondered about.
Somebody once did a gag gift of a pocket calculator done with Roman
numerals but that was just a key replacement - the results came up in
the usual Arabic...
BTR1701
2024-05-16 18:33:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Tue, 14 May 2024 09:49:54 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
The professors further suggested that certain classical music
skills-- like playing the piano and conducting orchestral
arrangements-- ought not to be required because they structurally
center "white European music" and cause "students of color great
distress".
These lunatics are literally trying to destroy literally every last
vestige of Western Civilization - and we're letting them, despite the
absurdity of their ideas. It's the Death of a Thousand Cuts approach
to destroying our culture and replacing it with something much MUCH
worse.
You should read Douglas Murray's The War on the West.
Unfortunately I agree with you on this point - all sorts of
non-Western music can (and is) written on bass and treble staffs and
there is no particular element that denies non-Western music. Bottom
line is that the bass and treble clef system is used BECAUSE IT WORKS
EFFECTIVELY.
Don't deny the alto and tenor clefs! All of you grand staff bigots
always marginalize the alto-tenor community!
BTR1701
2024-05-16 20:22:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
The professors further suggested that certain classical music
skills-- like playing the piano and conducting orchestral
arrangements-- ought not to be required because they structurally
center "white European music" and cause "students of color great
distress".
These lunatics are literally trying to destroy literally every last
vestige of Western Civilization - and we're letting them, despite the
absurdity of their ideas. It's the Death of a Thousand Cuts approach
to destroying our culture and replacing it with something much MUCH
worse.
You should read Douglas Murray's The War on the West.
Unfortunately I agree with you on this point - all sorts of
non-Western music can (and is) written on bass and treble staffs and
there is no particular element that denies non-Western music. Bottom
line is that the bass and treble clef system is used BECAUSE IT WORKS
EFFECTIVELY.
Don't deny the alto and tenor clefs! All of you grand staff bigots
always marginalize the alto-tenor community!
What am I supposed to do with C-clef on a piano? Also, why can't you
decide whether middle C is 3rd line or the 4th line of the staff?
Don't deride the inherent flexibility of the alto-tenors. C is where we
need it to be. Just because you're rigidly locked into F and G is no
reason to be jealous and dump on those who have the ability to adjust on
the fly!
Why aren't baritones and sopranos diverse enough to have their own clefs?
This is bigotry. You just made the professor's point!
moviePig
2024-05-16 19:37:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Who knew that everyday when I sit down and engrave film scores for the
live-to-picture and historical archiving projects, I'm actually practicing
white supremacy.
Thank god we have radical leftist 'progressives' to make us aware of these
things!
------------------------
Staff members within the University of Oxford's music department have
deemed sheet music "colonialist" and have suggested ways to "decolonize"
the curriculum.
Professors said that music notation has not "shaken off its connection to
its colonial past" and that not rebranding it would be a "slap in the face"
for students of color, according to documents reviewed by the British
outlet The Telegraph.
The same faculty also reportedly questioned whether the current curriculum
was complicit in "white supremacy," pointing to the program's focus on
"white European music from the slave period"-- composers like Mozart and
Beethoven.
The professors further suggested that certain classical music skills-- like
playing the piano and conducting orchestral arrangements-- ought not to be
required because they structurally center "white European music" and cause
"students of color great distress".
Fwiw, I've sometimes wondered if musical notation, were it designed
today, might look very different and. e.g., more intuitive to those of
us who have struggled to sight-read.
BTR1701
2024-05-16 20:09:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Who knew that everyday when I sit down and engrave film scores for the
live-to-picture and historical archiving projects, I'm actually practicing
white supremacy.
Thank god we have radical leftist 'progressives' to make us aware of these
things!
------------------------
Staff members within the University of Oxford's music department have
deemed sheet music "colonialist" and have suggested ways to "decolonize"
the curriculum.
Professors said that music notation has not "shaken off its connection to
its colonial past" and that not rebranding it would be a "slap in the face"
for students of color, according to documents reviewed by the British
outlet The Telegraph.
The same faculty also reportedly questioned whether the current curriculum
was complicit in "white supremacy," pointing to the program's focus on
"white European music from the slave period"-- composers like Mozart and
Beethoven.
The professors further suggested that certain classical music skills-- like
playing the piano and conducting orchestral arrangements-- ought not to be
required because they structurally center "white European music" and cause
"students of color great distress".
Fwiw, I've sometimes wondered if musical notation, were it designed
today, might look very different and. e.g., more intuitive to those of
us who have struggled to sight-read.
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.

(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)

<rolls eyes>
moviePig
2024-05-16 21:48:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Who knew that everyday when I sit down and engrave film scores for the
live-to-picture and historical archiving projects, I'm actually practicing
white supremacy.
Thank god we have radical leftist 'progressives' to make us aware of these
things!
------------------------
Staff members within the University of Oxford's music department have
deemed sheet music "colonialist" and have suggested ways to "decolonize"
the curriculum.
Professors said that music notation has not "shaken off its connection to
its colonial past" and that not rebranding it would be a "slap in the face"
for students of color, according to documents reviewed by the British
outlet The Telegraph.
The same faculty also reportedly questioned whether the current curriculum
was complicit in "white supremacy," pointing to the program's focus on
"white European music from the slave period"-- composers like Mozart and
Beethoven.
The professors further suggested that certain classical music skills-- like
playing the piano and conducting orchestral arrangements-- ought not to be
required because they structurally center "white European music" and cause
"students of color great distress".
Fwiw, I've sometimes wondered if musical notation, were it designed
today, might look very different and. e.g., more intuitive to those of
us who have struggled to sight-read.
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I trust you roll only the whites...
The Horny Goat
2024-05-17 07:42:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
Rhino
2024-05-18 01:43:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.

As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.

Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.

I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
--
Rhino
BTR1701
2024-05-18 04:09:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where literall
everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was an article in th
New York Times that asserted that the blind audition system used by mos
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it *prevents* racia
bias in the hiring process.

The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges hav
no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are, etc., i
takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This used to b
considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to raciall
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is a major proble
that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to result in orchestras bein
problematically white and Asian. When pure talent and ability are the onl
factors available upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestra
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.

So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that scree
so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against whites an
Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender, rather tha
ability to play the music.

Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racia
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a fe
bridges to sell them.

And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blin
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classica
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many blac
basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem in the firs
place). Wonder why that is?
trotsky
2024-05-18 09:33:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
How did those compare to the Rodney King riots? Oh, and followup
question: isn't it weird how those were predicated by police beating or
killing black men? Is there any way you can get your balls reattached
to address this? TIA.


where literally
Post by BTR1701
everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was an article in the
New York Times that asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it *prevents* racial
bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges have
no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are, etc., it
takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This used to be
considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is a major problem
that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to result in orchestras being
problematically white and Asian. When pure talent and ability are the only
factors available upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that screen
so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against whites and
Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender, rather than
ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a few
bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many black
basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem in the first
place). Wonder why that is?
moviePig
2024-05-18 16:18:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where literally
everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was an article in the
New York Times that asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it *prevents* racial
bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges have
no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are, etc., it
takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This used to be
considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is a major problem
that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to result in orchestras being
problematically white and Asian. When pure talent and ability are the only
factors available upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that screen
so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against whites and
Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender, rather than
ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a few
bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many black
basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem in the first
place). Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action' as
though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
BTR1701
2024-05-18 17:48:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where
literally everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was
an article in the New York Times that asserted that the blind audition
system used by most professional orchestras and ensembles was racist
because it *prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges
have no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are,
etc., it takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This
used to be considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the
inability to racially discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over
whites) is a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to base a
decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse' enough for the
intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that
screen so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against
whites and Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender,
rather than ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a
few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many
black basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem
in the first place). Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action' as
though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class so that
you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to whitey.

Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than that they
can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised you cheerlead for
it.

Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and they
somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on sheer talent
and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's not seen as a
'diversity' success but a problem that needs 'fixing'.
trotsky
2024-05-18 18:39:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where
literally everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was
an article in the New York Times that asserted that the blind audition
system used by most professional orchestras and ensembles was racist
because it *prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges
have no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are,
etc., it takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This
used to be considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the
inability to racially discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over
whites) is a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to base a
decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse' enough for the
intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that
screen so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against
whites and Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender,
rather than ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a
few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many
black basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem
in the first place). Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action' as
though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class so that
you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to whitey.
Right, because blacks aren't the most musically talented people on the
face of the earth. You are one stupid motherfucker.


+
Post by BTR1701
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than that they
can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised you cheerlead for
it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and they
somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on sheer talent
and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's not seen as a
'diversity' success but a problem that needs 'fixing'.
moviePig
2024-05-18 19:46:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where
literally everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was
an article in the New York Times that asserted that the blind audition
system used by most professional orchestras and ensembles was racist
because it *prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges
have no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are,
etc., it takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This
used to be considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the
inability to racially discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over
whites) is a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to base a
decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse' enough for the
intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that
screen so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against
whites and Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender,
rather than ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a
few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many
black basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem
in the first place). Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action' as
though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class so that
you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than that they
can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised you cheerlead for
it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and they
somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on sheer talent
and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's not seen as a
'diversity' success but a problem that needs 'fixing'.
But the issue in question is 'affirmative action', i.e.: procedural bias
meant to hasten the homogenization of an artificially bifurcate society.
BTR1701
2024-05-18 20:37:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where
literally everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was
an article in the New York Times that asserted that the blind audition
system used by most professional orchestras and ensembles was racist
because it *prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges
have no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are,
etc., it takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This
used to be considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the
inability to racially discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over
whites) is a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to base a
decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse' enough for the
intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that
screen so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against
whites and Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender,
rather than ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a
few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many
black basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem
in the first place). Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action' as
though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class so that
you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than that they
can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised you cheerlead for
it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and they
somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on sheer talent
and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's not seen as a
'diversity' success but a problem that needs 'fixing'.
But the issue in question is 'affirmative action', i.e.: procedural bias
meant to hasten the homogenization of an artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial about
it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they may with
regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance groups.

A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial occurrence
than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases, the best people
for the job are the ones who are hired.

Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?

Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations are
what they are because they hired the best people for the job. Why is one
a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that needs to be fixed?
Adam H. Kerman
2024-05-18 21:36:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where
literally everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was
an article in the New York Times that asserted that the blind audition
system used by most professional orchestras and ensembles was racist
because it *prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges
have no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are,
etc., it takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This
used to be considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the
inability to racially discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over
whites) is a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to base a
decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse' enough for the
intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that
screen so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against
whites and Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender,
rather than ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a
few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many
black basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem
in the first place). Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action' as
though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class so that
you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than that they
can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised you cheerlead for
it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and they
somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on sheer talent
and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's not seen as a
'diversity' success but a problem that needs 'fixing'.
But the issue in question is 'affirmative action', i.e.: procedural bias
meant to hasten the homogenization of an artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial about
it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they may with
regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial occurrence
than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases, the best people
for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations are
what they are because they hired the best people for the job. Why is one
a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that needs to be fixed?
The NBA discriminates against short, dumpy middle-aged Jews. C'mon. Saul
Rubinek couldn't even get a tryout. This is an outrage.
moviePig
2024-05-18 23:15:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where
literally everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was
an article in the New York Times that asserted that the blind audition
system used by most professional orchestras and ensembles was racist
because it *prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges
have no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are,
etc., it takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This
used to be considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the
inability to racially discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over
whites) is a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to base a
decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse' enough for the
intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that
screen so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against
whites and Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender,
rather than ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a
few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many
black basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem
in the first place). Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action' as
though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class so that
you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than that they
can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised you cheerlead for
it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and they
somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on sheer talent
and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's not seen as a
'diversity' success but a problem that needs 'fixing'.
But the issue in question is 'affirmative action', i.e.: procedural bias
meant to hasten the homogenization of an artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial about
it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they may with
regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial occurrence
than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases, the best people
for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations are
what they are because they hired the best people for the job. Why is one
a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.

Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Rhino
2024-05-19 00:08:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians
who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert
pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be replaced
by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is a
major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to result
in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to
base a decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse'
enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to play
the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's
not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that needs
'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they may
with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that needs
to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given
instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it had
more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and viewers
must be white and I would imagine more white players would be
appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see themselves
represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners are walking
away from extra income by not having more white players - and more
Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
--
Rhino
moviePig
2024-05-19 03:22:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians
who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert
pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be replaced
by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is a
major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to result
in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to
base a decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse'
enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to play
the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's
not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that needs
'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they may
with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that needs
to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given
instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it had
more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and viewers
must be white and I would imagine more white players would be
appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see themselves
represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners are walking
away from extra income by not having more white players - and more
Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
Rhino
2024-05-19 20:28:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by
winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
--
Rhino
moviePig
2024-05-19 22:35:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game -- a mathematical fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.

Practically, though, I suspect the most noticeable cost of such a
priority is that ensembles may take a bit longer to fill seats...
BTR1701
2024-05-19 23:30:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game -- a mathematical fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.
But no need to put white faces on the basketball court, amirite?
Post by moviePig
Practically, though, I suspect the most noticeable cost of such a
priority is that ensembles may take a bit longer to fill seats...
trotsky
2024-05-20 08:19:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game -- a mathematical fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.
But no need to put white faces on the basketball court, amirite?
Why, are white people having trouble getting opportunities to compete on
the basketball court? This is a horseshit analogy and you are
responding to moviepig because he will only tell you this in a hideously
obtuse way.
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Practically, though, I suspect the most noticeable cost of such a
priority is that ensembles may take a bit longer to fill seats...
moviePig
2024-05-20 14:57:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game -- a mathematical fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.
But no need to put white faces on the basketball court, amirite?
Post by moviePig
...
Yes, exactly "rite". Whites aren't presumed too dumb for basketball.
BTR1701
2024-05-20 18:28:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game -- a mathematical fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.
But no need to put white faces on the basketball court, amirite?
Yes, exactly "rite". Whites aren't presumed too dumb for basketball.
What the hell are you talking about? No one's presuming anyone dumb in
any of this.
moviePig
2024-05-20 19:02:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game -- a mathematical fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.
But no need to put white faces on the basketball court, amirite?
Yes, exactly "rite". Whites aren't presumed too dumb for basketball.
What the hell are you talking about? No one's presuming anyone dumb in
any of this.
The world of classical orchestra is considered intellectual, highbrow,
and generally beyond the grasp of the underprivileged. Some black faces
as role models could help to dispel that self-fulfilling stigma.
BTR1701
2024-05-20 20:08:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game -- a mathematical fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.
But no need to put white faces on the basketball court, amirite?
Yes, exactly "rite". Whites aren't presumed too dumb for basketball.
What the hell are you talking about? No one's presuming anyone dumb in
any of this.
The world of classical orchestra is considered intellectual, highbrow,
and generally beyond the grasp of the underprivileged.
You're saying more about yourself than the rest of us.
moviePig
2024-05-20 20:42:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game -- a mathematical fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.
But no need to put white faces on the basketball court, amirite?
Yes, exactly "rite". Whites aren't presumed too dumb for basketball.
What the hell are you talking about? No one's presuming anyone dumb in
any of this.
The world of classical orchestra is considered intellectual, highbrow,
and generally beyond the grasp of the underprivileged.
You're saying more about yourself than the rest of us.
I don't see that the rest of you should talk about me at all.
Adam H. Kerman
2024-05-20 20:56:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
. . .
The world of classical orchestra is considered intellectual, highbrow,
and generally beyond the grasp of the underprivileged.
You're saying more about yourself than the rest of us.
You know, I just wrote a followup to accuse moviePig of being resentful
and elitist and disdainful of trying to get to know a top-performing
athlete or musician who, for reasons of self-imposed isolation to
perfect their performances, tended to isolate themselves from others.

I figured moviePig would give me his usual convoluted denial, then
insult me back. I didn't expect him to make my point, confirming that my
accusations were spot on.

He's so resentful, condescending, and elitist that my putdowns of his
personality just aren't good enough. Only he is good enough to put
himself down.
FPP
2024-05-22 15:03:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game -- a mathematical fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.
But no need to put white faces on the basketball court, amirite?
Yes, exactly "rite". Whites aren't presumed too dumb for basketball.
What the hell are you talking about? No one's presuming anyone dumb in
any of this.
The world of classical orchestra is considered intellectual, highbrow,
and generally beyond the grasp of the underprivileged.
You're saying more about yourself than the rest of us.
Let me help with the English. Pig is asserting that the underprivileged
have less access to classical orchestra.

It's why most inner city kids don't train to sail yachts.

Probably because the instruments are expensive and they spend more of
their free time on trying to get ahead than sitting in an orchestra.

I can draw pictures if it will help.
--
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind." - OC
Bible 25B.G.
Loading Image...

Gracie, age 6.
Loading Image...
trotsky
2024-05-23 09:00:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white
musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind
screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as
white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they
simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning
because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not
sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if
this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily
to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race
they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can
actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the
elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to
get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no
plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players
(or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your
view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both
organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out:  The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every
disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson.  Today, teams make money by
winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game --  a mathematical
fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.
But no need to put white faces on the basketball court, amirite?
Yes, exactly "rite". Whites aren't presumed too dumb for basketball.
What the hell are you talking about? No one's presuming anyone dumb in
any of this.
The world of classical orchestra is considered intellectual, highbrow,
and generally beyond the grasp of the underprivileged.
You're saying more about yourself than the rest of us.
Let me help with the English.  Pig is asserting that the underprivileged
have less access to classical orchestra.
More like pig is emulating what I said.
It's why most inner city kids don't train to sail yachts.
Probably because the instruments are expensive and they spend more of
their free time on trying to get ahead than sitting in an orchestra.
I can draw pictures if it will help.
The Horny Goat
2024-05-24 05:05:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by FPP
Let me help with the English. Pig is asserting that the underprivileged
have less access to classical orchestra.
It's why most inner city kids don't train to sail yachts.
Probably because the instruments are expensive and they spend more of
their free time on trying to get ahead than sitting in an orchestra.
I can draw pictures if it will help.
Which presumably explains why soccer or basketball are more popular in
poorer districts in Canada than hockey or football. It's a fair high
school in Canada that doesn't have soccer goal posts (typically
without net) while only grassy fields get football goal posts. And
don't get me started on hockey which can be nearly as costly as golf
or polo.

(Not to mention 4am practices - I remember shortly after she won her
world champiionship years ago figure skater Karen Magnusson - who is
from my home town - was interviewed and was asked which incident most
changed her life and said it was when she got her driver's licence
since her mother then didn't have to drive her to the rink for 4 am
practices since she was now driving herself...)
trotsky
2024-05-23 08:36:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 23:22:51 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game -- a mathematical fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.
But no need to put white faces on the basketball court, amirite?
Yes, exactly "rite". Whites aren't presumed too dumb for basketball.
What the hell are you talking about? No one's presuming anyone dumb in
any of this.
The world of classical orchestra is considered intellectual, highbrow,
and generally beyond the grasp of the underprivileged.
You're saying more about yourself than the rest of us.
So true, mpig has some semblance of an identity whereas "the rest of
you" are primarily anonyshits. Good call.
Adam H. Kerman
2024-05-20 19:29:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers, that means it's a racist form of white
supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black
musicians who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of
the concert pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be
replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is
a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian.
When pure talent and ability are the only factors available
upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to
play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how
that's not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that
needs 'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they
may with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance
groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that
needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Let me help you out: The 'general policy' is to promote blacks,
disproportionately if necessary, into visible prominence in order to
change societal biases ...and even though every disproportionate such
instance will, taken in isolation, feel "unjust".
And when will there be enough black musicians in orchestras?
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it
had more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and
viewers must be white and I would imagine more white players would
be appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see
themselves represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners
are walking away from extra income by not having more white players
- and more Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
Uh, no, not since Jackie Robinson. Today, teams make money by winning.
But orchestras must prioritize hiring on the basis of skin colour even
if it reduces the quality of the orchestra and therefore hurts ticket
sales, right?
Yes, competing priorities is a zero-sum game -- a mathematical fact.
And, anyone who sees no value to black faces in major orchestras won't
be pleased at that increased emphasis.
But no need to put white faces on the basketball court, amirite?
Yes, exactly "rite". Whites aren't presumed too dumb for basketball.
What the hell are you talking about? No one's presuming anyone dumb in
any of this.
Invariably, whenever moviePig postures profoundly in lieu of just
participating in friendly discussion, he reveals instead that he is
profoundly ignorant.

There are elite athletes who compete on the world stage for whom
performance is everything. They allow no distraction and are totally
dedicated. They don't have normal friendships and may not be able to
discuss all that much aside from their own sport. When they marry, it is
invariably to an elite athlete in the same sport of the opposite sex
because they don't get to know other people well enough to have a long
term relationship with.

If someone who has no idea of that level of dedication attempts to have
a conversation with such an athlete, he may think he's "dumb" rather
than the athlete is an inexperienced general conversationalist. To have
a conversation with such a person might mean having patience, actively
listening, trying harder.

Why can't you come off as the warm and friendly one instead of always
expected the other person to be?

moviePig made a racism accusation despite knowing of no racism.

What's truly happening here is moviePig made is so self unaware that he
is ignorant of what he revealed about himself: When he encounters people
with whom he has nothing in common and shares no experiences, he's such an
elitist that he DOESN'T want to even try to get to know them. Even just
listening to someone without comment (because moviePig knows fuck-all)
would demonstrate empathy. That's a skill anyone less resentful might
master. It might lead to friendship.

The very best classical musicians may be comparable to elite athletes.
They may not know people who weren't music students. Because music is
incredibly competitive, they spend an inordinate amount of time
practicing because unless they are the very best, it's impossible to
earn a living as a professional musician. Not having had time to spend
with people who aren't musicians, they may also come off as off putting.

But I'm sure moviePig is too elitist to try to get to know a
top-ranked musician either. While this attitude of contempt toward
everybody else is moviePig's great loss, the rest of the world learned
long ago what it can do without.
The Horny Goat
2024-05-20 23:06:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 18 May 2024 20:08:26 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Don't you think a pro basketball team would make MORE money if it had
more white players? A considerable portion of their fans and viewers
must be white and I would imagine more white players would be
appreciated by white fans and viewers who would like to see themselves
represented. If my reasoning is correct, the team owners are walking
away from extra income by not having more white players - and more
Asians as well, who might also be basketball fans.
I dunno - the Harlem Globetrotters have been playing since the 1920s
and seem to be doing ok.

Though one thing I remember when I saw them some 20 years ago was that
they were playing an all white team which I found a bit off-putting.
BTR1701
2024-05-25 02:01:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rhino
On Sat, 18 May 2024 19:15:05 -0400
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians
who have managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert
pianists these days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that
they weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and
attributed this to race. To address that, all or most
auditions for orchestras started being done behind screens so
that the judges could only hear the performance but not see
the performer. But apparently Asians are now seen as white or
white allies and a certain group of people who I'll call
People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply
be given positions on orchestras without auditioning because
they have been discriminated against in the past. I assume
they're proposing some kind of quota system but I'm not sure
what percentage of the slots they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support
among the people who decide these things but, given the way
things are going in general, I would be surprised if this was
NOT done. Competence is going out of the window to be replaced
by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny
all of this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots,
where literally everything in America was discovered to be
racist, there was an article in the New York Times that
asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it
*prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and
the judges have no idea who the person is, what race they are,
what gender they are, etc., it takes away the judge's ability
to racially discriminate. This used to be considered a good
thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is a
major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to result
in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to
base a decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse'
enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to
remove that screen so the judges see the players, can actively
discriminate against whites and Asians, and make hiring
decisions based on race and gender, rather than ability to play
the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of
racial discrimination is the goal of the modern
'progressive'... well, I have a few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid
of blind auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too
many white classical musicians, there strangely was no plan to
'fix' the problem of too many black basketball players (or any
recognition that it even is a problem in the first place).
Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action'
as though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class
so that you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to
whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than
that they can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised
you cheerlead for it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and
they somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on
sheer talent and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's
not seen as a 'diversity' success but a problem that needs
'fixing'.
procedural bias meant to hasten the homogenization of an
artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial
about it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they may
with regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial
occurrence than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases,
the best people for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations
are what they are because they hired the best people for the job.
Why is one a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that needs
to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Which says absolutely nothing as is typical for you when you fail to
defend the indefensible.
Here's how DIE is working out in the federal judiciary...

Among top LSAT scorers (170 or above), 82.5% are white, 15.2% are Asian, 1.6%
hispanic, and 0.3% black.

State Bar exam passage rates averaged over the 50 states: 76.2% white, 11.4%
Asian, 7.3% hispanic, 4.6% black.

80% of lawyers in the United States are white.

Biden's 200 federal judges: 30% white, 50% Hispanic and black, 14% Asian.

It's obvious what happened here:

https://ibb.co/VM0r1hc

(*Numbers do not include Native Americans and Pacific Islanders.)
BTR1701
2024-05-19 01:41:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these
days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where
literally everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was
an article in the New York Times that asserted that the blind audition
system used by most professional orchestras and ensembles was racist
because it *prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges
have no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are,
etc., it takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This
used to be considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the
inability to racially discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over
whites) is a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to base a
decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse' enough for the
intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that
screen so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against
whites and Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender,
rather than ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a
few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many
black basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem
in the first place). Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action' as
though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class so that
you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than that they
can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised you cheerlead for
it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and they
somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on sheer talent
and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's not seen as a
'diversity' success but a problem that needs 'fixing'.
But the issue in question is 'affirmative action', i.e.: procedural bias
meant to hasten the homogenization of an artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial about
it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they may with
regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial occurrence
than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases, the best people
for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations are
what they are because they hired the best people for the job. Why is one
a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
And the teams who make the most money are the teams who win-- i.e., the teams
with the most talent. If you want to start putting black people in orchestras
despite them not being able to play Mahler as well as the white guy next in
line, then you have to start forcing basketball teams to hire less-talented
white guys who can't play as well as the top-ranked black players.
Adam H. Kerman
2024-05-19 02:20:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
On Thu, 16 May 2024 13:09:59 -0700, BTR1701
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or
something.)
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these
days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where
literally everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was
an article in the New York Times that asserted that the blind audition
system used by most professional orchestras and ensembles was racist
because it *prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges
have no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender
they are,
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
etc., it takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This
used to be considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the
inability to racially discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over
whites) is a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to base a
decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse' enough for the
intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that
screen so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against
whites and Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender,
rather than ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a
few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many
black basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem
in the first place). Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action' as
though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class so that
you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than that they
can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised you cheerlead for
it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and they
somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on sheer talent
and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's not seen as a
'diversity' success but a problem that needs 'fixing'.
But the issue in question is 'affirmative action', i.e.: procedural bias
meant to hasten the homogenization of an artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial about
it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they may with
regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial occurrence
than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases, the best people
for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations are
what they are because they hired the best people for the job. Why is one
a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
And the teams who make the most money are the teams who win-- i.e., the teams
with the most talent. If you want to start putting black people in orchestras
despite them not being able to play Mahler as well as the white guy next in
line, then you have to start forcing basketball teams to hire less-talented
white guys who can't play as well as the top-ranked black players.
I don't care. I still want diversity-hire Jews in the NBA!
trotsky
2024-05-19 08:53:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by BTR1701
Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for
sight-readers,
that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
<rolls eyes>
I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these
days
are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where
literally everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was
an article in the New York Times that asserted that the blind audition
system used by most professional orchestras and ensembles was racist
because it *prevents* racial bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges
have no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are,
etc., it takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This
used to be considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the
inability to racially discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over
whites) is a major problem that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to
result in orchestras being problematically white and Asian. When pure
talent and ability are the only factors available upon which to base a
decision, the resulting orchestras aren't 'diverse' enough for the
intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that
screen so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against
whites and Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender,
rather than ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a
few bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many
black basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem
in the first place). Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action' as
though it were a moral absurdity. Does that sum up your view?
I'm complaining about making an orchestra less than world class so that
you can pat yourself on the back for sticking it to whitey.
Yes. Giving someone a seat on stage for any other reason than that they
can do the job is morally abhorrent. I'm not surprised you cheerlead for
it.
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and they
somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on sheer talent
and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's not seen as a
'diversity' success but a problem that needs 'fixing'.
But the issue in question is 'affirmative action', i.e.: procedural bias
meant to hasten the homogenization of an artificially bifurcate society.
But in the case of these orchestras, there's nothing artificial about
it. The auditions are blind and the chips fall where they may with
regard to race, gender, and all the other grievance groups.
A mostly white or Asian orchestra is no more of an artificial occurrence
than is a mostly black basketball team. In both cases, the best people
for the job are the ones who are hired.
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations are
what they are because they hired the best people for the job. Why is one
a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that needs to be fixed?
Any general policy is subject to second-guessing in any given instance.
Meanwhile, a pro basketball team is governed by money, not ideals.
And the teams who make the most money are the teams who win-- i.e., the teams
with the most talent. If you want to start putting black people in orchestras
despite them not being able to play Mahler as well as the white guy next in
line,
Cite? Hint, your racism is not proof, it's just you acting like a piece
of dogshit. I claim these truths to be self evident:


Black musicians' low participation in American orchestras often begins
with issues of access and resources. It is expensive to become a working
classical musician, and even more expensive if you want to play in a
professional orchestra.Apr 3, 2024

It's Not Just an Access Problem – Orchestras Aren't Creating ...
I Care If You Listen
https://icareifyoulisten.com › 2024/04 › its-not-just-an-...


then you have to start forcing basketball teams to hire less-talented
Post by BTR1701
white guys who can't play as well as the top-ranked black players.
The Horny Goat
2024-05-19 00:04:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Again, why is a mostly black basketball team perfectly fine, but a
mostly Asian orchestra 'problematic'?
Both are historically oppressed minorities and both organizations are
what they are because they hired the best people for the job. Why is one
a 'diversity success' and the other a problem that needs to be fixed?
Mostly in Asian circles the main 'oppresion' is by the "Dragon Mom" of
her own children rather than actual oppression as the term is
generally meant.

I had teachers of all nationalities including a Maori rugby
coach...great guy who both loved his game and was a slavedriver to
ensure it was played right. Good man, died far too soon...
The Horny Goat
2024-05-19 00:01:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Of course Asians are historically oppressed minorities, too, and they
somehow manage to not only make it into these ensembles on sheer talent
and merit alone, but dominate them. Weird how that's not seen as a
'diversity' success but a problem that needs 'fixing'.
My personal view is that anybody who insists on that kind of 'fixing'
needs to be 'fixed' - and I mean in the veterinary sense of that term!
trotsky
2024-05-18 18:34:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by moviePig
On May 17, 2024 at 6:43:52 PM PDT, "Rhino"
Post by Rhino
On Fri, 17 May 2024 00:42:52 -0700
  >Yes, and because the current system isn't a dream for sight-readers,
  >that means it's a racist form of white supremacy.
  >
  >(Because only white people can sight read perfectly or something.)
  >
  ><rolls eyes>
  I'm pretty sure there were and are a few black musicians who have
  managed the feat and somehow a lot of the concert pianists these days
  are of Asian origin...
I wouldn't expect that to continue if I were you.
As I understand it, Asian musicians expressed concerns that they
weren't getting performance gigs as white musicians and attributed this
to race. To address that, all or most auditions for orchestras started
being done behind screens so that the judges could only hear the
performance but not see the performer. But apparently Asians are now
seen as white or white allies and a certain group of people who I'll
call People of Darker Colour (PODC) are demanding that they simply be
given positions on orchestras without auditioning because they have
been discriminated against in the past. I assume they're proposing some
kind of quota system but I'm not sure what percentage of the slots
they're demanding.
Now, I don't know if this proposal is finding any support among the
people who decide these things but, given the way things are going in
general, I would be surprised if this was NOT done. Competence is going
out of the window to be replaced by hiring on the basis of skin colour.
I'm sure the usual suspects will be along momentarily to deny all of
this and/or defend it.
Yes, during the height of the Saint Floyd of Fentanyl riots, where literally
everything in America was discovered to be racist, there was an article in the
New York Times that asserted that the blind audition system used by most
professional orchestras and ensembles was racist because it *prevents* racial
bias in the hiring process.
The 'problem' is that when musicians play behind a screen and the judges have
no idea who the person is, what race they are, what gender they are, etc., it
takes away the judge's ability to racially discriminate. This used to be
considered a good thing, but in today's woke world, the inability to racially
discriminate (i.e., give preference to blacks over whites) is a major problem
that needs fixing. Blind auditions tend to result in orchestras being
problematically white and Asian. When pure talent and ability are the only
factors available upon which to base a decision, the resulting orchestras
aren't 'diverse' enough for the intelligentsia.
So now, rather than blind auditions, the wokesters want to remove that screen
so the judges see the players, can actively discriminate against whites and
Asians, and make hiring decisions based on race and gender, rather than
ability to play the music.
Anyone who thinks a level playing field and the elimination of racial
discrimination is the goal of the modern 'progressive'... well, I have a few
bridges to sell them.
And with all the hand-wringing over how they needed to get rid of blind
auditions so that they can 'fix' the problem of too many white classical
musicians, there strangely was no plan to 'fix' the problem of too many black
basketball players (or any recognition that it even is a problem in the first
place). Wonder why that is?
In so many words, you're complaining about 'affirmative action' as
though it were a moral absurdity.  Does that sum up your view?
Warning: impending bullshit from Oath Keeper Twat.
Gordinator
2024-05-16 21:48:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Who knew that everyday when I sit down and engrave film scores for the
live-to-picture and historical archiving projects, I'm actually practicing
white supremacy.
Thank god we have radical leftist 'progressives' to make us aware of these
things!
------------------------
Staff members within the University of Oxford's music department have
deemed sheet music "colonialist" and have suggested ways to "decolonize"
the curriculum.
Professors said that music notation has not "shaken off its connection to
its colonial past" and that not rebranding it would be a "slap in the face"
for students of color, according to documents reviewed by the British
outlet The Telegraph.
The same faculty also reportedly questioned whether the current curriculum
was complicit in "white supremacy," pointing to the program's focus on
"white European music from the slave period"-- composers like Mozart and
Beethoven.
The professors further suggested that certain classical music skills-- like
playing the piano and conducting orchestral arrangements-- ought not to be
required because they structurally center "white European music" and cause
"students of color great distress".
Fwiw, I've sometimes wondered if musical notation, were it designed
today, might look very different and. e.g., more intuitive to those of
us who have struggled to sight-read.
Many, many people have tried, and (almost) all of them have failed:

The Horny Goat
2024-05-17 07:43:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 16 May 2024 22:48:17 +0100, Gordinator
Post by Gordinator
Post by moviePig
Fwiw, I've sometimes wondered if musical notation, were it designed
today, might look very different and. e.g., more intuitive to those of
us who have struggled to sight-read.
http://youtu.be/Eq3bUFgEcb4
I dunno - I'm an indifferent pianist but somehow can manage the
feat...
Loading...