ICE detains 680 removable aliens

Post by Adam H. Kerman
ICE detained 680 removable aliens working at seven agricultural
processing plants across Mississippi Wednesday morning.
They removed lots of employment records.
I heard a spokesman for ICE say specifically that the owners of the
plants were not targetted.
The federal law being enforced is the Reagan-era Immigration Reform and
Control Act of 1986, which put the onus on employers to gather documents
from newly hired workers establishing their citizenship or right to work
in the United States.
Now, I've heard of small employers with less than a dozen people on
payroll being targeted by the federal government and either subject to
civil fines or occassional criminal prosecution.
Large employers like this one? You never ever hear of any getting fined
nor prosecuted. You do hear of them enjoying the benefit of immigrant
labor for years, then cooperating with the federal government to have
them all rounded up on payday (as most of the removable aliens are
likely to be present) and just not paying them for their final week.
With this many illegal aliens hired, it's not possible to believe that
the owner just had absolutely no idea whatsoever.
Can anyone explain how very large employers keep getting away with
breaking this law?

Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently, proving they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-08 15:53:27 UTC

Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently, proving
they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

I think the problem is proving they *knowingly* employed illegals.

If somebody presents you with a fake social security card, how are you
supposed to know?

I mean, most of us in the southwest that hire small gardening companies have
almost certainly employed illegals, if not directly, then one step down. I
know the boss of my guys was born here. When I replaced the fence on my
property with a block wall, I know damn well the workers were undocumented
day labor, even though the contractor wasn't.

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Ed Stasiak

2019-08-08 16:06:03 UTC

anim8rfsk
I mean, most of us in the southwest that hire small gardening companies have
almost certainly employed illegals, if not directly, then one step down.

Hell, I’m in Michigan and 15 or so years back I had my concrete driveway replaced
by the same company the city had hired to replace all the sidewalks and other than
the crew leader, all guys were Mexicans speaking Spanish and probably illegals.

I’ve got a city park behind my house and every week a landscaping company comes
around to cut the grass and all the guys look Mexican and are also probably illegals.

The government needs to bust employers and landlords who are enabling this mass
migration and fine them up the ass and toss them in jail. It’s the only viable way to
deal with this problem because as long as illegals can get a job and housing here,
(as well as tax payer funded government benefits) there is no reason for them to not
keep coming to the U.S.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-08 16:20:56 UTC

anim8rfsk
I mean, most of us in the southwest that hire small gardening companies have
almost certainly employed illegals, if not directly, then one step down.

Hell, I’m in Michigan and 15 or so years back I had my concrete driveway replaced
by the same company the city had hired to replace all the sidewalks and other than
the crew leader, all guys were Mexicans speaking Spanish and probably illegals.
I’ve got a city park behind my house and every week a landscaping company comes
around to cut the grass and all the guys look Mexican and are also probably illegals.
The government needs to bust employers and landlords who are enabling this mass
migration and fine them up the ass and toss them in jail. It’s the only
viable way to
deal with this problem because as long as illegals can get a job and housing here,
(as well as tax payer funded government benefits) there is no reason for them to not
keep coming to the U.S.

As long as the government themselves are hiring illegals, they aren't going
to start busting!

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 17:17:59 UTC

Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently, proving
they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

I think the problem is proving they *knowingly* employed illegals.
If somebody presents you with a fake social security card, how are you
supposed to know?

Because you have to accept multiple documents, usually two unless the
new hire shows a passport. The Social Security Card isn't mandatory, but
it's helpful for correctly entering name and SSN.

If the name and SSN don't match, the employer receives a "no match"
letter from Social Security Administration and the employee is required
to re-present documents.

E-Verify has never been mandatory (not to mention, it's been a very bug
prone system for two decades). However, a good payroll administration
will submit new hires through the SSA database in batches. You really
really don't want to wait till the close of the calendar year when
preparing W-2s, because it's way too much work at that point.

For those of you who've never done payroll, W-2s are filed with SSA, not
IRS. SSA then inputs withholding data for Social Security taxes and
federal income taxes but NOT withholding for state and local taxes,
which is why paper copies of W-2s have to be attached to state and local
tax returns. SSA usually doesn't finish all the data entry (assuming no
government shut down) till something like September of the following
calendar year, at which point vast number of "no match" letters go out.

It's an incredibly stupid system designed to be bureaucratic and
ineffective.

Post by anim8rfsk
I mean, most of us in the southwest that hire small gardening companies have
almost certainly employed illegals, if not directly, then one step down. I
know the boss of my guys was born here. When I replaced the fence on my
property with a block wall, I know damn well the workers were undocumented
day labor, even though the contractor wasn't.

Gardeners are probably mostly independent contractorsm, probably even
the guys who aren't crew leaders. There are no payrolls, and I doubt too
many of them pay their Social Security taxes as self-employment taxes.

Same with maid services.

Note htat a lot of the time, these people should be on payroll, not
independent contractors. If you use the boss's tools and the boss finds
the job for you, you're an employee, not a contractor.

We're not talking about catching small businesses with tiny payrolls
here. We're talking about medium sized factories with medium sized
payrolls that, coincidentally, employ no one eligible to work among all
the workers on the factory floor.

In these cases, it's impossible for the factory owner not to be
complicit.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-08 17:45:17 UTC

Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently, proving
they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

I think the problem is proving they *knowingly* employed illegals.
If somebody presents you with a fake social security card, how are you
supposed to know?

Because you have to accept multiple documents, usually two unless the
new hire shows a passport. The Social Security Card isn't mandatory, but
it's helpful for correctly entering name and SSN.
If the name and SSN don't match, the employer receives a "no match"
letter from Social Security Administration and the employee is required
to re-present documents.
E-Verify has never been mandatory (not to mention, it's been a very bug
prone system for two decades). However, a good payroll administration
will submit new hires through the SSA database in batches. You really
really don't want to wait till the close of the calendar year when
preparing W-2s, because it's way too much work at that point.
For those of you who've never done payroll, W-2s are filed with SSA, not
IRS. SSA then inputs withholding data for Social Security taxes and
federal income taxes but NOT withholding for state and local taxes,
which is why paper copies of W-2s have to be attached to state and local
tax returns. SSA usually doesn't finish all the data entry (assuming no
government shut down) till something like September of the following
calendar year, at which point vast number of "no match" letters go out.
It's an incredibly stupid system designed to be bureaucratic and
ineffective.

Yes.

Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they put
a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Gardeners are probably mostly independent contractorsm, probably even
the guys who aren't crew leaders. There are no payrolls, and I doubt too
many of them pay their Social Security taxes as self-employment taxes.
Same with maid services.
Note htat a lot of the time, these people should be on payroll, not
independent contractors. If you use the boss's tools and the boss finds
the job for you, you're an employee, not a contractor.
We're not talking about catching small businesses with tiny payrolls
here. We're talking about medium sized factories with medium sized
payrolls that, coincidentally, employ no one eligible to work among all
the workers on the factory floor.
In these cases, it's impossible for the factory owner not to be
complicit.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 18:17:31 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they put
a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I think hers is
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.

What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force you to miss
your federal court date if they don't like the ID?

If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.

Given that passport cards (used for crossing the Mexico border so you
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID compliant, are
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That was allegedly
the point when Congress wrote the legislation years ago.

It wasn't just supposed to be for boarding airplanes. As we know,
terrorists have no ability to comply with paperwork and documentaiton
requirements.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-08 18:41:51 UTC

My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I think hers is
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.
What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force you to miss
your federal court date if they don't like the ID?
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.
Given that passport cards (used for crossing the Mexico border so you
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID compliant, are
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That was allegedly
the point when Congress wrote the legislation years ago.
It wasn't just supposed to be for boarding airplanes. As we know,
terrorists have no ability to comply with paperwork and documentaiton
requirements.

Here's the click. You can see the gold star in the corner:

https://www.azdot.gov/motor-vehicles/driver-services/arizona-travel-
id/overview

"Three categories of identification documents are required. All documents
must be originals or certified copies in English, certified by the issuing
agency."

I still can't qualify. I now have a birth certificate, which I needed to
apply for Social Security, and an SS card, which I got for applying to SS.
But "two printed documents with your current Arizona residential address" is
a problem, as I do all that electronically, and none of it is going to have
my residential address on it, since I don't get mail at home.

Which means I need to go here:
https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/mvd-forms-pubs/40-
5143.pdf?sfvrsn=10

So if you can't come up with two proofs of residency you have to come up with
one proof of residency and use this form to pinky swear. But I can't come up
with *any* proofs of residency. So I'm screwed.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 18:56:00 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me
to upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID,
and they put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the
difference.

My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I think hers is
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.
What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force you to miss
your federal court date if they don't like the ID?
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.
Given that passport cards (used for crossing the Mexico border so you
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID compliant, are
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That was allegedly
the point when Congress wrote the legislation years ago.
It wasn't just supposed to be for boarding airplanes. As we know,
terrorists have no ability to comply with paperwork and documentaiton
requirements.

You receive various bills with your service address, even if you don't
receive them by mail. Typically, you go on line and find a .pdf in the
same format as the bill if sent by mail. Just print those out. You've
got electric, gas, telephone (if you still have a land line), cable, and
your cell phone bill if you entered your home address as your 911
address. Associating a physical address with a mobile phone for 911
purposes is STOOPID, but that's federal law.

You still need to keep after your postmaster for never getting to the
bottom of what's been fucking up your mail delivery all these years.

https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/mvd-forms-pubs/40-
5143.pdf?sfvrsn=10

I also donwloaded the referenced document which fails to give examples
of documents satisfying Arizona's proof of residency requirement.

So if you can't come up with two proofs of residency you have to come up with
one proof of residency and use this form to pinky swear. But I can't come up
with *any* proofs of residency. So I'm screwed.

No, I think you can print them out to satisfy the requirement. Try it to
see what happens.

How about the property transfer deed when you inherited from your
mother? Surely they can't dispute that. I suppose it doesn't prove it's
your primary residence, though.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-08 19:26:14 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me
to upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID,
and they put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the
difference.

My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I think hers is
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.
What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force you to miss
your federal court date if they don't like the ID?
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.
Given that passport cards (used for crossing the Mexico border so you
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID compliant, are
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That was allegedly
the point when Congress wrote the legislation years ago.
It wasn't just supposed to be for boarding airplanes. As we know,
terrorists have no ability to comply with paperwork and documentaiton
requirements.

It says I can't do that. Must be printed by the issuing issuer.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
You've
got electric, gas, telephone (if you still have a land line), cable, and
your cell phone bill if you entered your home address as your 911
address. Associating a physical address with a mobile phone for 911
purposes is STOOPID, but that's federal law.

No gas service.
I don't think we have the 'register your cell phone with 911' service here.
If we do, I've never signed up for it.
T-Mobile won't let me log in. Says my cell phone number isn't valid. Idiots.
Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle ... okay, it won't take my phone number at all. It
*will* take my email address where it says 'phone number' but that threw me
into 'verification mode' hell. Text message received. Trying to view bill...
Okay, it includes *no* address information of any kind. Ack! They just texted
me the authentication code again! Stop that! I DL pdfs of past bills,
detailed and summary. Hell, it doesn't even include my last name!
If I could get a PDF of the electric bill, it *might* include the service
address, but, again, they say they won't accept my print out. And it has to
be printed out.
Okay, yeah, my electric bill (OMG IT'S THE HIGHEST IT'S EVER BEEN BY LIKE
$100) *only* includes my home address, although in truncated form which is
kind of weird. No state, no zip. No wonder I don't get it in the snail mail.
:D
My Cox cable bill (OMG IT'S THE HIGHEST IT'S EVER BEEN) actually includes
'service address' and 'billing address' - that would answer a lot of
questions for them. If they'd accept a print out from the UPS store or
something.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
You still need to keep after your postmaster for never getting to the
bottom of what's been fucking up your mail delivery all these years.

I gave up long ago. I get packages fine now. And junk mail. It's just letter
service I don't have. And every time I try to fix it, CHASE suspends my
credit cards. Which may or may not be related.

https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/mvd-forms-pubs/40-
5143.pdf?sfvrsn=10

I also donwloaded the referenced document which fails to give examples
of documents satisfying Arizona's proof of residency requirement.

Yeah, wasn't that helpful?

No, I think you can print them out to satisfy the requirement. Try it to
see what happens.

It says they won't accept that, but they certainly might. I brought a lot
more stuff to SS than they ever looked at.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
How about the property transfer deed when you inherited from your
mother? Surely they can't dispute that. I suppose it doesn't prove it's
your primary residence, though.

Nope. I might be able to come up with a 30 year old title to my house though.
:)

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Ed Stasiak

2019-08-08 19:53:53 UTC

anim8rfsk
T-Mobile won't let me log in. Says my cell phone number isn't valid. Idiots.

Yeah, WTF? I’ve also got T-Mobile and I get the same error message.

Rhino

2019-08-08 20:22:12 UTC

anim8rfsk
T-Mobile won't let me log in. Says my cell phone number isn't valid. Idiots.

Yeah, WTF? I’ve also got T-Mobile and I get the same error message.

Temporary system error maybe?

--
Rhino

FPP

2019-08-08 22:56:18 UTC

anim8rfsk
T-Mobile won't let me log in. Says my cell phone number isn't valid. Idiots.

Yeah, WTF? I’ve also got T-Mobile and I get the same error message.

Temporary system error maybe?

It's the "libs". Now they're censoring your cell phones.

Don't worry, Trump plans on issuing an Executive Order that all
conservative cell phones will always be able to get his tweets.

--
There are three inescapable facts from the Mueller report that Mitch
McConnell can't hide:
1. A foreign government attacked our elections in order to help Donald
Trump.
2. Trump welcomed that help.
3. Trump tried to obstruct the investigation into his actions.
-Elizabeth Warren

Rhino

2019-08-09 00:42:01 UTC

anim8rfsk
T-Mobile won't let me log in. Says my cell phone number isn't valid. Idiots.

Yeah, WTF? I’ve also got T-Mobile and I get the same error message.

Temporary system error maybe?

It's the "libs". Now they're censoring your cell phones.
Don't worry, Trump plans on issuing an Executive Order that all
conservative cell phones will always be able to get his tweets.

Why would he care about conservatives? It's the "progressives" that he
trolls....

--
Rhino

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 00:30:30 UTC

anim8rfsk
T-Mobile won't let me log in. Says my cell phone number isn't valid. Idiots.

Yeah, WTF? I’ve also got T-Mobile and I get the same error message.

Temporary system error maybe?

It did this to me the last time I logged in, maybe 6 months ago. And it
doesn't make you set a new password.

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anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 00:21:27 UTC

anim8rfsk
T-Mobile won't let me log in. Says my cell phone number isn't valid. Idiots.

Yeah, WTF? I’ve also got T-Mobile and I get the same error message.

Huh. Well, sorry to hear it's doing it to you, but glad to know it's not just
me. :)

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 21:21:02 UTC

Post by Adam H. Kerman
You receive various bills with your service address, even if you don't
receive them by mail. Typically, you go on line and find a .pdf in the
same format as the bill if sent by mail. Just print those out.

It says I can't do that. Must be printed by the issuing issuer.

Print them two-sided, trim to size, and crease them flat with a straight
edge. Maybe let them watch you take it out of a window envelope. Just
bring a lot of them.

The whole point of showing a utility bill or a bill with a service
address is proof of address with an account number in your name. It's
verifiable, and they're idiots.

No gas service.

Ok.

Post by anim8rfsk
I don't think we have the 'register your cell phone with 911' service here.
If we do, I've never signed up for it.

You don't sign up for it. It's in your on line account and probably
subscriber configurable. It's not your billing address.

The idea of registering the cell phone to an address for 911 purposes is
beyond stupid, but it's the law, so might as well take advantage of it
to prove your address is your primary residence.

Post by anim8rfsk
T-Mobile won't let me log in. Says my cell phone number isn't valid. Idiots.
Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle ... okay, it won't take my phone number at all.

Did you ever have a combined bill including your mother's cell phone?
It's also possible that the account is coded to use as the
authentication cell phone number some temporary number they assigned to
you until the phone number was ported.

Sounds like a call to customer service is required. I have T-Mobile,
too, and I know exactly where on the customer interface to change the
address for 911 purposes.

Post by anim8rfsk
It
*will* take my email address where it says 'phone number' but that threw me
into 'verification mode' hell. Text message received. Trying to view bill...
Okay, it includes *no* address information of any kind. Ack!

The "short" bill, 8 pages long but without call detail, has the address
I provided for 911 and my billing address on page 3.

Post by anim8rfsk
They just texted
me the authentication code again! Stop that! I DL pdfs of past bills,
detailed and summary. Hell, it doesn't even include my last name!
If I could get a PDF of the electric bill, it *might* include the service
address, but, again, they say they won't accept my print out. And it has to
be printed out.
Okay, yeah, my electric bill (OMG IT'S THE HIGHEST IT'S EVER BEEN BY LIKE
$100) *only* includes my home address, although in truncated form which is
kind of weird. No state, no zip. No wonder I don't get it in the snail mail.
:D
My Cox cable bill (OMG IT'S THE HIGHEST IT'S EVER BEEN) actually includes
'service address' and 'billing address' - that would answer a lot of
questions for them. If they'd accept a print out from the UPS store or
something.

Or have somebody send you a bill by couriuer.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
You still need to keep after your postmaster for never getting to the
bottom of what's been fucking up your mail delivery all these years.

I gave up long ago. I get packages fine now. And junk mail. It's just letter
service I don't have. And every time I try to fix it, CHASE suspends my
credit cards. Which may or may not be related.

Chase is the worst bank in the world. I still have one account with
them but they dumped my other accounts.

Post by anim8rfsk
https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/mvd-forms-pubs/40-
5143.pdf?sfvrsn=10

I also donwloaded the referenced document which fails to give examples
of documents satisfying Arizona's proof of residency requirement.

Yeah, wasn't that helpful?

Post by anim8rfsk
So if you can't come up with two proofs of residency you have to come
up with one proof of residency and use this form to pinky swear. But
I can't come up with *any* proofs of residency. So I'm screwed.

No, I think you can print them out to satisfy the requirement. Try it to
see what happens.

It says they won't accept that, but they certainly might. I brought a lot
more stuff to SS than they ever looked at.

Just the fact that you're trying to cooperate might get them to
cooperate.

Oh: If you truly have no letter delivery, you won't receive your Real
ID. They don't make those over the counter. There's a handful of
factories around the country that comply with the Homeland Security
directive and they come by mail after three weeks.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
How about the property transfer deed when you inherited from your
mother? Surely they can't dispute that. I suppose it doesn't prove it's
your primary residence, though.

Nope. I might be able to come up with a 30 year old title to my house though.
:)

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 00:53:33 UTC

It says I can't do that. Must be printed by the issuing issuer.

Print them two-sided, trim to size, and crease them flat with a straight
edge. Maybe let them watch you take it out of a window envelope. Just
bring a lot of them.
The whole point of showing a utility bill or a bill with a service
address is proof of address with an account number in your name. It's
verifiable, and they're idiots.

Yes

No gas service.

Ok.

Post by anim8rfsk
I don't think we have the 'register your cell phone with 911' service here.
If we do, I've never signed up for it.

You don't sign up for it. It's in your on line account and probably
subscriber configurable. It's not your billing address.
The idea of registering the cell phone to an address for 911 purposes is
beyond stupid, but it's the law, so might as well take advantage of it
to prove your address is your primary residence.

Post by anim8rfsk
T-Mobile won't let me log in. Says my cell phone number isn't valid. Idiots.
Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle ... okay, it won't take my phone number at all.

Did you ever have a combined bill including your mother's cell phone?

Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's also possible that the account is coded to use as the
authentication cell phone number some temporary number they assigned to
you until the phone number was ported.
Sounds like a call to customer service is required. I have T-Mobile,
too, and I know exactly where on the customer interface to change the
address for 911 purposes.

The "short" bill, 8 pages long but without call detail, has the address
I provided for 911 and my billing address on page 3.

OMG OMG OMG
If you step through every page, the last page is meant to be folded over and
has a mailing address on it.
And ... it's my mom's.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
D

My Cox cable bill (OMG IT'S THE HIGHEST IT'S EVER BEEN) actually includes
'service address' and 'billing address' - that would answer a lot of
questions for them. If they'd accept a print out from the UPS store or
something.

Or have somebody send you a bill by couriuer.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
You still need to keep after your postmaster for never getting to the
bottom of what's been fucking up your mail delivery all these years.

I gave up long ago. I get packages fine now. And junk mail. It's just letter
service I don't have. And every time I try to fix it, CHASE suspends my
credit cards. Which may or may not be related.

Chase is the worst bank in the world. I still have one account with
them but they dumped my other accounts.

Bank of America is the worst bank in the world. Wells Fargo is next. They
just changed my free checking account to "$17/month unless you keep a $10,000
minimum"

Post by anim8rfsk
https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/mvd-forms-pubs/40-
5143.pdf?sfvrsn=10

I also donwloaded the referenced document which fails to give examples
of documents satisfying Arizona's proof of residency requirement.

Yeah, wasn't that helpful?

No, I think you can print them out to satisfy the requirement. Try it to
see what happens.

It says they won't accept that, but they certainly might. I brought a lot
more stuff to SS than they ever looked at.

Just the fact that you're trying to cooperate might get them to
cooperate.
Oh: If you truly have no letter delivery, you won't receive your Real
ID. They don't make those over the counter. There's a handful of
factories around the country that comply with the Homeland Security
directive and they come by mail after three weeks.

LOL, and I suppose they won't send it to my PO Box?

Post by Adam H. Kerman
How about the property transfer deed when you inherited from your
mother? Surely they can't dispute that. I suppose it doesn't prove it's
your primary residence, though.

Nope. I might be able to come up with a 30 year old title to my house though.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-09 01:55:58 UTC

. . .

[T-Mobile bills]

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The "short" bill, 8 pages long but without call detail, has the address
I provided for 911 and my billing address on page 3.

OMG OMG OMG
If you step through every page, the last page is meant to be folded over and
has a mailing address on it.
And ... it's my mom's.

I'm sorry but you can't avoid a customer service call. I don't think the
billing address can be changed through the subscriber interface.

. . .

Chase is the worst bank in the world. I still have one account with
them but they dumped my other accounts.

Bank of America is the worst bank in the world. Wells Fargo is next. They
just changed my free checking account to "$17/month unless you keep a $10,000
minimum"

A competition in which all the customers lose and there can be no
winners!

. . .

Oh: If you truly have no letter delivery, you won't receive your Real
ID. They don't make those over the counter. There's a handful of
factories around the country that comply with the Homeland Security
directive and they come by mail after three weeks.

LOL, and I suppose they won't send it to my PO Box?

Part of "security" is proving that you receive mail at
the address being used for your primary residence. You may not be able
to convince them to send it to another address.

. . .

A Friend

2019-08-09 02:10:15 UTC

. . .

[T-Mobile bills]

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The "short" bill, 8 pages long but without call detail, has the address
I provided for 911 and my billing address on page 3.

OMG OMG OMG
If you step through every page, the last page is meant to be folded over and
has a mailing address on it.
And ... it's my mom's.

I'm sorry but you can't avoid a customer service call. I don't think the
billing address can be changed through the subscriber interface.

. . .

Chase is the worst bank in the world. I still have one account with
them but they dumped my other accounts.

Bank of America is the worst bank in the world. Wells Fargo is next. They
just changed my free checking account to "$17/month unless you keep a $10,000
minimum"

A competition in which all the customers lose and there can be no
winners!

. . .

LOL, and I suppose they won't send it to my PO Box?

Part of "security" is proving that you receive mail at
the address being used for your primary residence. You may not be able
to convince them to send it to another address.

I think that's right. When NYC (finally) sent me my fancy new birth
certificate, FedEx delivered it, and I had to be there to sign for it.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 02:54:21 UTC

. . .

[T-Mobile bills]

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The "short" bill, 8 pages long but without call detail, has the address
I provided for 911 and my billing address on page 3.

OMG OMG OMG
If you step through every page, the last page is meant to be folded over and
has a mailing address on it.
And ... it's my mom's.

I'm sorry but you can't avoid a customer service call. I don't think the
billing address can be changed through the subscriber interface.

It's not the billing address. If they tried billing my credit card to a 8
year old address, it would go boing.
But, yeah, what you said.

. . .

Chase is the worst bank in the world. I still have one account with
them but they dumped my other accounts.

Bank of America is the worst bank in the world. Wells Fargo is next. They
just changed my free checking account to "$17/month unless you keep a $10,000
minimum"

A competition in which all the customers lose and there can be no
winners!

. . .

LOL, and I suppose they won't send it to my PO Box?

Part of "security" is proving that you receive mail at
the address being used for your primary residence. You may not be able
to convince them to send it to another address.

Yeah. And there are so many ways for it to go wrong, just as I've become
accustomed to the new system...

. . .

--
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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-09 17:06:07 UTC

. . .

[T-Mobile bills]

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The "short" bill, 8 pages long but without call detail, has the address
I provided for 911 and my billing address on page 3.

OMG OMG OMG
If you step through every page, the last page is meant to be folded over and
has a mailing address on it.
And ... it's my mom's.

I'm sorry but you can't avoid a customer service call. I don't think the
billing address can be changed through the subscriber interface.

It's not the billing address. If they tried billing my credit card to a 8
year old address, it would go boing.
But, yeah, what you said.

It's T-Mobile's record of the billing address for your T-Mobile account,
not a billing address for credit card you used years ago. As you are
trying to document your primary address, you need to correct this.

I'm looking at the subscriber interface on the Web to my own T-Mobile
account right now. My name is on the right, top line, with a drop down
menu. Profile > Billing & Payments > Billing Address

There are also tick boxes for the E911 and Usage Addresses, if you want the
billing, E911, and usage addresses all to be the same. The E911 address
will display on the terminal of the emergency call center if you call
911, even though it's completely useless information if the incident
isn't taking place at home. The usage address establishes nexus for
tax purposes.

. . .

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 18:12:48 UTC

. . .

[T-Mobile bills]

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The "short" bill, 8 pages long but without call detail, has the address
I provided for 911 and my billing address on page 3.

OMG OMG OMG
If you step through every page, the last page is meant to be folded over and
has a mailing address on it.
And ... it's my mom's.

I'm sorry but you can't avoid a customer service call. I don't think the
billing address can be changed through the subscriber interface.

It's not the billing address. If they tried billing my credit card to a 8
year old address, it would go boing.
But, yeah, what you said.

It's T-Mobile's record of the billing address for your T-Mobile account,
not a billing address for credit card you used years ago. As you are
trying to document your primary address, you need to correct this.
I'm looking at the subscriber interface on the Web to my own T-Mobile
account right now. My name is on the right, top line, with a drop down
menu. Profile > Billing & Payments > Billing Address
There are also tick boxes for the E911 and Usage Addresses, if you want the
billing, E911, and usage addresses all to be the same. The E911 address
will display on the terminal of the emergency call center if you call
911, even though it's completely useless information if the incident
isn't taking place at home. The usage address establishes nexus for
tax purposes.

. . .

Okay, I'm going in ...

Website activated.
Log in (email or phone number)
Safari auto enters phone number
Total fail
Where did I put that email address again?
Launch text edit to get email address
Launch keychain to copy paste password
"Let's confirm it's you.
For your security, we'll verify your account information."
sigh
"Text Message confirmation code to the phone number we just said wasn't
valid"
copy code from iPhone to retina
and, I'm in
Apparently I'm going to have to go through this every single time now

I see my name in the upper right
Pull down PROFILE/Billing& Payments/Billing Address
Wow. There's Mom, under Billing Address. I have *no* idea why CHASE doesn't
bounce the payments.

I click 'billing address'
it opens up "make this the E911 address" - well, that's where THAT is

There's BILLING ADDRESS and USAGE ADDRESS
"Your usage address is the address where the phone will be used most often.
This is used for tax purposes only."
WTF?

I attempt to put my PO box into Billing Address. It's too long and they
truncate it.
SUDDENLY MY PHONE LIGHTS UP
YOUR BILLING ADDRESS HAS BEEN CHANGED!!! IF ACTION UNAUTHORIZED, ACCOUNT
HOLDER SHOULD VISIT T-MOBILE.COM!!!

So while 'billing address' is editable, ADDRESS (for E911) and USAGE ADDRESS
(for tax purposes) are not. They simply have check boxes to use the billing
address, and neither is checked. I assume this is defaulting to 'none given'
and not 'send the police to his PO box if he ever calls for help'

So I now have a semi correct billing address, NO e911 address, and no Usage
Address (for tax purposes)

It now offers me a second line of address. I enter what they truncated. It
now shows my billing address all on one line, with a comma. So why wouldn't
it let me just add it all on one line in the first place?

SUDDENLY MY PHONE LIGHTS UP
YOUR BILLING ADDRESS HAS BEEN CHANGED!!! IF ACTION UNAUTHORIZED, ACCOUNT
HOLDER SHOULD VISIT T-MOBILE.COM!!!

without changing anything, I click 'cancel'

SUDDENLY MY PHONE LIGHTS UP
YOUR BILLING ADDRESS HAS BEEN CHANGED!!! IF ACTION UNAUTHORIZED, ACCOUNT
HOLDER SHOULD VISIT T-MOBILE.COM!!!

Okay, back to PROFILE and now LINE SETTINGS
Here it shows my E911 address as being Mom's
And the Usage Address as being my house
So I change the E911 address

or try to. First I have to click away the survey they just popped up

So I change the E911 address to my house. Now it wants to know if it should
do that for all lines. Sure. Now it wants to know if it should change the
Usage Address to match, which doesn't really mean anything, as they're
identical. I don't bother to dick with that.

SUDDENLY MY PHONE LIGHTS UP
WIFI CALLING EMERGENCY ADDRESS UPDATED!

Oh, God. Now it wants me to do this all again for my other line. I better
check ...

I check my second line but before I can do anything

SUDDENLY MY PHONE LIGHTS UP
Caller ID says I have a call from Benson, AZ
1-520-265-8677
Apparently this is the Benson AZ (cue theme from Dark Star) that's a boiler
room in India

In extremely halting Engrish, she says she's calling from VT Support, the
licensed support for my computer
I tell her she's lying
She says she's not
I say she is
She asks how I know that
I tell her there is no such service
She asks what makes me think that
I tell her "I know you're lying, you know you're lying, why are we discussing
this?"
She hangs up.

Okay, back to my second line ...
It has the E911 address as my house, but the Usage Address as ... Moms
I fix that

Nothing lights up

I exit

and offer thanks

:)

--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/

Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-09 18:49:11 UTC

. . .

[T-Mobile bills]

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The "short" bill, 8 pages long but without call detail, has the address
I provided for 911 and my billing address on page 3.

OMG OMG OMG
If you step through every page, the last page is meant to be folded
over and has a mailing address on it.
And ... it's my mom's.

I'm sorry but you can't avoid a customer service call. I don't think the
billing address can be changed through the subscriber interface.

It's not the billing address. If they tried billing my credit card to a 8
year old address, it would go boing.
But, yeah, what you said.

It's T-Mobile's record of the billing address for your T-Mobile account,
not a billing address for credit card you used years ago. As you are
trying to document your primary address, you need to correct this.
I'm looking at the subscriber interface on the Web to my own T-Mobile
account right now. My name is on the right, top line, with a drop down
menu. Profile > Billing & Payments > Billing Address
There are also tick boxes for the E911 and Usage Addresses, if you want the
billing, E911, and usage addresses all to be the same. The E911 address
will display on the terminal of the emergency call center if you call
911, even though it's completely useless information if the incident
isn't taking place at home. The usage address establishes nexus for
tax purposes.

. . .

Yes. They're making me jump through the two-step verification hoops too.
I had to take my cell phone off charger to receive the text message.

Post by anim8rfsk
I see my name in the upper right
Pull down PROFILE/Billing& Payments/Billing Address
Wow. There's Mom, under Billing Address. I have *no* idea why CHASE doesn't
bounce the payments.

Because T-Mobile isn't authenticating that the billing address on your
cell phone account is the same as the billing address on the credit
card.

Post by anim8rfsk
I click 'billing address'
it opens up "make this the E911 address" - well, that's where THAT is
There's BILLING ADDRESS and USAGE ADDRESS
"Your usage address is the address where the phone will be used most often.
This is used for tax purposes only."
WTF?

T-Mobile bills do a lousy job of breaking out taxes as the claim the
flat rate they quote includes taxes and fees, but there are excise taxes
and fees at the municipal, state, and federal levels, so they remit
taxes based on the "usage address" provided by the subscriber, but
because the total bill after taxes and fees is a flat rate, it doesn't
change your monthly expense if you claim to live in a lower tax
jurisdiciton.

Post by anim8rfsk
I attempt to put my PO box into Billing Address. It's too long and they
truncate it.

I have my PO Box as the billing address. How can it be too long? Make
sure city, state, and ZIP are in their own fields, and never provide
ZIP+4.

Post by anim8rfsk
SUDDENLY MY PHONE LIGHTS UP
YOUR BILLING ADDRESS HAS BEEN CHANGED!!! IF ACTION UNAUTHORIZED, ACCOUNT
HOLDER SHOULD VISIT T-MOBILE.COM!!!

But you're using the interface right now!

Post by anim8rfsk
So while 'billing address' is editable, ADDRESS (for E911) and USAGE ADDRESS
(for tax purposes) are not. They simply have check boxes to use the billing
address, and neither is checked. I assume this is defaulting to 'none given'
and not 'send the police to his PO box if he ever calls for help'
So I now have a semi correct billing address, NO e911 address, and no Usage
Address (for tax purposes)

I didn't give you those instructions as I hadn't asked what you would
use for a billing address.

Profile > Line Settings > E911 Address

Enter your residential address there. There's a tick box under E911
Address to also use it as the usage address.

Post by anim8rfsk
It now offers me a second line of address. I enter what they truncated. It
now shows my billing address all on one line, with a comma. So why wouldn't
it let me just add it all on one line in the first place?

I'm not sure you entered portions of your address into the intended
fields.

Post by anim8rfsk
. . .

Wow. That's quite a lot of hysteria on their part.

I didn't ask if you have multiple lines on the account, because they
also had tick boxes to use the same address for all lines on the
account. Clearly, the billing address is specific to the account, not
individual lines.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 20:00:50 UTC

. . .

[T-Mobile bills]

Post by Adam H. Kerman
The "short" bill, 8 pages long but without call detail, has the address
I provided for 911 and my billing address on page 3.

OMG OMG OMG
If you step through every page, the last page is meant to be folded
over and has a mailing address on it.
And ... it's my mom's.

I'm sorry but you can't avoid a customer service call. I don't think the
billing address can be changed through the subscriber interface.

It's not the billing address. If they tried billing my credit card to a 8
year old address, it would go boing.
But, yeah, what you said.

It's T-Mobile's record of the billing address for your T-Mobile account,
not a billing address for credit card you used years ago. As you are
trying to document your primary address, you need to correct this.
I'm looking at the subscriber interface on the Web to my own T-Mobile
account right now. My name is on the right, top line, with a drop down
menu. Profile > Billing & Payments > Billing Address
There are also tick boxes for the E911 and Usage Addresses, if you want the
billing, E911, and usage addresses all to be the same. The E911 address
will display on the terminal of the emergency call center if you call
911, even though it's completely useless information if the incident
isn't taking place at home. The usage address establishes nexus for
tax purposes.

. . .

Yes. They're making me jump through the two-step verification hoops too.
I had to take my cell phone off charger to receive the text message.

I saw a checkbox for that. It was off. I left it that way!

Because T-Mobile isn't authenticating that the billing address on your
cell phone account is the same as the billing address on the credit
card.

Or at all, because nothing had my billing address.

ah, TY

Post by anim8rfsk
I attempt to put my PO box into Billing Address. It's too long and they
truncate it.

I have my PO Box as the billing address. How can it be too long? Make
sure city, state, and ZIP are in their own fields, and never provide
ZIP+4.

I hit 'too long' all the time. It's like they only allow 12 characters or
something...
okay, the address, with STE and PMB, is 31 characters. They truncate at 24.

Post by anim8rfsk
SUDDENLY MY PHONE LIGHTS UP
YOUR BILLING ADDRESS HAS BEEN CHANGED!!! IF ACTION UNAUTHORIZED, ACCOUNT
HOLDER SHOULD VISIT T-MOBILE.COM!!!

But you're using the interface right now!

There's that

I didn't give you those instructions as I hadn't asked what you would
use for a billing address.
Profile > Line Settings > E911 Address
Enter your residential address there. There's a tick box under E911
Address to also use it as the usage address.

I'm not sure you entered portions of your address into the intended
fields.

Post by anim8rfsk
. . .

Wow. That's quite a lot of hysteria on their part.
I didn't ask if you have multiple lines on the account, because they
also had tick boxes to use the same address for all lines on the
account. Clearly, the billing address is specific to the account, not
individual lines.

Yeah, I have my old business line, which is the number everybody knows, as a
second line.

--
Join your old RAT friends at
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Rhino

2019-08-08 19:34:43 UTC

My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I think hers is
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.
What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force you to miss
your federal court date if they don't like the ID?
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.
Given that passport cards (used for crossing the Mexico border so you
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID compliant, are
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That was allegedly
the point when Congress wrote the legislation years ago.
It wasn't just supposed to be for boarding airplanes. As we know,
terrorists have no ability to comply with paperwork and documentaiton
requirements.

https://www.azdot.gov/motor-vehicles/driver-services/arizona-travel-
id/overview
"Three categories of identification documents are required. All documents
must be originals or certified copies in English, certified by the issuing
agency."
I still can't qualify. I now have a birth certificate, which I needed to
apply for Social Security, and an SS card, which I got for applying to SS.
But "two printed documents with your current Arizona residential address" is
a problem, as I do all that electronically, and none of it is going to have
my residential address on it, since I don't get mail at home.
https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/mvd-forms-pubs/40-
5143.pdf?sfvrsn=10
So if you can't come up with two proofs of residency you have to come up with
one proof of residency and use this form to pinky swear. But I can't come up
with *any* proofs of residency. So I'm screwed.

Maybe you're making things too difficult for yourself. Shortly after one
move, I dropped into the library at my new city to get a library card.
They asked me for ID with my new address on it but I hadn't changed
anything over yet. I pulled out a dry cleaning receipt with my name and
new address on it and asked if that would do? They said sure and I was
good to go.

Perhaps you could get away with something like that?

--
Rhino

anim8rfsk

2019-08-08 20:03:49 UTC

My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I think hers is
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.
What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force you to miss
your federal court date if they don't like the ID?
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.
Given that passport cards (used for crossing the Mexico border so you
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID compliant, are
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That was allegedly
the point when Congress wrote the legislation years ago.
It wasn't just supposed to be for boarding airplanes. As we know,
terrorists have no ability to comply with paperwork and documentaiton
requirements.

Maybe you're making things too difficult for yourself. Shortly after one
move, I dropped into the library at my new city to get a library card.
They asked me for ID with my new address on it but I hadn't changed
anything over yet. I pulled out a dry cleaning receipt with my name and
new address on it and asked if that would do? They said sure and I was
good to go.
Perhaps you could get away with something like that?

Wow, a dry cleaner? I haven't seen a dry cleaner since ... damn ... the 20th
Century? :D

But you've got a point, I should be able to collect food delivery receipts,
and I bet those have my address on 'em ...

--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/

Rhino

2019-08-08 20:21:39 UTC

My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I think hers is
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.
What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force you to miss
your federal court date if they don't like the ID?
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.
Given that passport cards (used for crossing the Mexico border so you
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID compliant, are
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That was allegedly
the point when Congress wrote the legislation years ago.
It wasn't just supposed to be for boarding airplanes. As we know,
terrorists have no ability to comply with paperwork and documentaiton
requirements.

Maybe you're making things too difficult for yourself. Shortly after one
move, I dropped into the library at my new city to get a library card.
They asked me for ID with my new address on it but I hadn't changed
anything over yet. I pulled out a dry cleaning receipt with my name and
new address on it and asked if that would do? They said sure and I was
good to go.
Perhaps you could get away with something like that?

Wow, a dry cleaner? I haven't seen a dry cleaner since ... damn ... the 20th
Century? :D

The anecdote was from 1982 :-) Mind you, I used a dry cleaner just last
year so I know they still exist, at least in this area....

Post by anim8rfsk
But you've got a point, I should be able to collect food delivery receipts,
and I bet those have my address on 'em ...
You probably want to make sure they have your first and last names on

them as well as your address. And if you don't have any like that, order
something tonight and make sure those receipts have your full name and
address on them.

--
Rhino

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 00:29:53 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and
they
put
a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I think hers is
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.
What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force you to miss
your federal court date if they don't like the ID?
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.
Given that passport cards (used for crossing the Mexico border so you
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID compliant, are
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That was allegedly
the point when Congress wrote the legislation years ago.
It wasn't just supposed to be for boarding airplanes. As we know,
terrorists have no ability to comply with paperwork and documentaiton
requirements.

Maybe you're making things too difficult for yourself. Shortly after one
move, I dropped into the library at my new city to get a library card.
They asked me for ID with my new address on it but I hadn't changed
anything over yet. I pulled out a dry cleaning receipt with my name and
new address on it and asked if that would do? They said sure and I was
good to go.
Perhaps you could get away with something like that?

Wow, a dry cleaner? I haven't seen a dry cleaner since ... damn ... the 20th
Century? :D

The anecdote was from 1982 :-) Mind you, I used a dry cleaner just last
year so I know they still exist, at least in this area....

them as well as your address. And if you don't have any like that, order
something tonight and make sure those receipts have your full name and
address on them.

Of course, this is all predicated on the idea that I even *want* a Travel ID,
which I'm not sure is the same as a Real ID, and unless I want to fly over to
Sandy Eggo and pop Ian one right in the nose, I'm not sure I do. I don't need
one for driving around the country with suzeeQ and the dog.

--
Join your old RAT friends at
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shawn

2019-08-09 01:15:36 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and
they
put
a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I think hers is
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.
What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force you to miss
your federal court date if they don't like the ID?
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.
Given that passport cards (used for crossing the Mexico border so you
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID compliant, are
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That was allegedly
the point when Congress wrote the legislation years ago.
It wasn't just supposed to be for boarding airplanes. As we know,
terrorists have no ability to comply with paperwork and documentaiton
requirements.

Maybe you're making things too difficult for yourself. Shortly after one
move, I dropped into the library at my new city to get a library card.
They asked me for ID with my new address on it but I hadn't changed
anything over yet. I pulled out a dry cleaning receipt with my name and
new address on it and asked if that would do? They said sure and I was
good to go.
Perhaps you could get away with something like that?

Wow, a dry cleaner? I haven't seen a dry cleaner since ... damn ... the 20th
Century? :D

The anecdote was from 1982 :-) Mind you, I used a dry cleaner just last
year so I know they still exist, at least in this area....

them as well as your address. And if you don't have any like that, order
something tonight and make sure those receipts have your full name and
address on them.

An Arizona Travel ID is either a driver license or an ID card. So if
you already have an Arizona Real ID driver license then you are
covered. Same with the new driver license I got last year which
included Real ID.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 01:39:01 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and
they
put
a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I think hers is
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.
What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force you to miss
your federal court date if they don't like the ID?
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I
wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.
Given that passport cards (used for crossing the Mexico border so you
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID compliant, are
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That was allegedly
the point when Congress wrote the legislation years ago.
It wasn't just supposed to be for boarding airplanes. As we know,
terrorists have no ability to comply with paperwork and documentaiton
requirements.

https://www.azdot.gov/motor-vehicles/driver-services/arizona-travel-
id/overview
"Three categories of identification documents are required. All
documents
must be originals or certified copies in English, certified by the
issuing
agency."
I still can't qualify. I now have a birth certificate, which I needed to
apply for Social Security, and an SS card, which I got for applying to
SS.
But "two printed documents with your current Arizona residential
address"
is
a problem, as I do all that electronically, and none of it is going to
have
my residential address on it, since I don't get mail at home.
https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/mvd-forms-pubs/40-
5143.pdf?sfvrsn=10
So if you can't come up with two proofs of residency you have to come up
with
one proof of residency and use this form to pinky swear. But I can't
come
up
with *any* proofs of residency. So I'm screwed.

Maybe you're making things too difficult for yourself. Shortly after one
move, I dropped into the library at my new city to get a library card.
They asked me for ID with my new address on it but I hadn't changed
anything over yet. I pulled out a dry cleaning receipt with my name and
new address on it and asked if that would do? They said sure and I was
good to go.
Perhaps you could get away with something like that?

Wow, a dry cleaner? I haven't seen a dry cleaner since ... damn ... the 20th
Century? :D

The anecdote was from 1982 :-) Mind you, I used a dry cleaner just last
year so I know they still exist, at least in this area....

them as well as your address. And if you don't have any like that, order
something tonight and make sure those receipts have your full name and
address on them.

I have a regular driver license. They're trying to scare me into getting a
Travel ID, which is a driver license with a gold star in the corner.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-09 01:46:35 UTC

Thu, 08 Aug 2019 11:17:31 -0700 Adam H.

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV

trying to get me to

Post by anim8rfsk
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of

Real ID, and

Post by anim8rfsk
they
put
a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the

difference.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I

think hers is

Post by Adam H. Kerman
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.
What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force

you to miss

Post by Adam H. Kerman
your federal court date if they don't like the ID?
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I
wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.
Given that passport cards (used for crossing the Mexico

border so you

Post by Adam H. Kerman
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID

compliant, are

Post by Adam H. Kerman
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That

was allegedly

Post by Adam H. Kerman
the point when Congress wrote the legislation years ago.
It wasn't just supposed to be for boarding airplanes. As we know,
terrorists have no ability to comply with paperwork and

documentaiton

Post by Adam H. Kerman
requirements.

I needed to

apply for Social Security, and an SS card, which I got for

applying to

SS.
But "two printed documents with your current Arizona residential
address"
is
a problem, as I do all that electronically, and none of it

is going to

have
my residential address on it, since I don't get mail at home.
https://www.azdot.gov/docs/default-source/mvd-forms-pubs/40-
5143.pdf?sfvrsn=10
So if you can't come up with two proofs of residency you

have to come up

with
one proof of residency and use this form to pinky swear. But I can't
come
up
with *any* proofs of residency. So I'm screwed.

Maybe you're making things too difficult for yourself. Shortly

after one

Post by Rhino
move, I dropped into the library at my new city to get a library card.
They asked me for ID with my new address on it but I hadn't changed
anything over yet. I pulled out a dry cleaning receipt with my

name and

Post by Rhino
new address on it and asked if that would do? They said sure and I was
good to go.
Perhaps you could get away with something like that?

Wow, a dry cleaner? I haven't seen a dry cleaner since ... damn ... the 20th
Century? :D

The anecdote was from 1982 :-) Mind you, I used a dry cleaner just last
year so I know they still exist, at least in this area....

them as well as your address. And if you don't have any like that, order
something tonight and make sure those receipts have your full name and
address on them.

I have a regular driver license. They're trying to scare me into getting a
Travel ID, which is a driver license with a gold star in the corner.

Can't you buy your own gold star at the party store?

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 02:51:54 UTC

Thu, 08 Aug 2019 11:17:31 -0700 Adam H.

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV

trying to get me to

Post by anim8rfsk
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of

Real ID, and

Post by anim8rfsk
they
put
a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the

difference.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
My mother just renewed her driver's license this year. I

think hers is

Post by Adam H. Kerman
Real ID compliant. I renewed mine last year; it's not.
What if you've got a federal court summons? They'll force

you to miss

border so you

Post by Adam H. Kerman
don't have to carry a passport) have always been Real ID

compliant, are

Post by Adam H. Kerman
the Real ID drivers' licenses also passport cards? That

was allegedly

documentaiton

Post by Adam H. Kerman
requirements.

I needed to

apply for Social Security, and an SS card, which I got for

applying to

SS.
But "two printed documents with your current Arizona residential
address"
is
a problem, as I do all that electronically, and none of it

is going to

have to come up

with
one proof of residency and use this form to pinky swear. But I can't
come
up
with *any* proofs of residency. So I'm screwed.

Maybe you're making things too difficult for yourself. Shortly

after one

name and

Post by Rhino
new address on it and asked if that would do? They said sure and I was
good to go.
Perhaps you could get away with something like that?

Wow, a dry cleaner? I haven't seen a dry cleaner since ... damn ... the
20th
Century? :D

The anecdote was from 1982 :-) Mind you, I used a dry cleaner just last
year so I know they still exist, at least in this area....

Post by anim8rfsk
But you've got a point, I should be able to collect food delivery
receipts,
and I bet those have my address on 'em ...
You probably want to make sure they have your first and last names on

them as well as your address. And if you don't have any like that, order
something tonight and make sure those receipts have your full name and
address on them.

I have a regular driver license. They're trying to scare me into getting a
Travel ID, which is a driver license with a gold star in the corner.

Can't you buy your own gold star at the party store?

That's exactly what it looks like, and exactly what was my first thought.

Knowing these guys, it might actually be a sticker.

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shawn

2019-08-09 02:09:32 UTC

Post by shawn

Post by anim8rfsk
Of course, this is all predicated on the idea that I even *want* a Travel ID,
which I'm not sure is the same as a Real ID, and unless I want to fly over to
Sandy Eggo and pop Ian one right in the nose, I'm not sure I do. I don't need
one for driving around the country with suzeeQ and the dog.

I have a regular driver license. They're trying to scare me into getting a
Travel ID, which is a driver license with a gold star in the corner.

Sounds like you have the regular license which is NOT Real ID
compliant. Why Arizona decided to offer both at the same time I don't
know as it is just going to confuse people once they stop letting
people use their non Real ID compliant IDs for things like travel in
the future. (Oct 2020, I guess.) If you never travel by air it may not
matter to you, but I'm sure it's going to cause problems for at least
some people.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 03:19:07 UTC

I have a regular driver license. They're trying to scare me into getting a
Travel ID, which is a driver license with a gold star in the corner.

Sounds like you have the regular license which is NOT Real ID

yes. I got it this year but couldn't meet the TravelID requirements

Post by shawn
compliant. Why Arizona decided to offer both at the same time I don't
know as it is just going to confuse people once they stop letting
people use their non Real ID compliant IDs for things like travel in
the future. (Oct 2020, I guess.) If you never travel by air it may not
matter to you, but I'm sure it's going to cause problems for at least
some people.

AZ is going to continue offering multiple versions indefinitely.

DL - not RealID compliant
DL with gold star - RealID compliant
ID card - RealID compliant
And here's the rub - they don't mention ID cards that aren't RealID
compliant, but I don't for a moment believe we don't have those as well.

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BTR1701

2019-08-08 22:02:55 UTC

I figure that's a great way to get out of jury duty.

"I showed up when and where I was told to but the guys in uniform with guns
wouldn't let me in the door. Sorry!"

Post by Adam H. Kerman
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.

I can use my federal creds for air travel and even when I retire, I've got
a passport valid until 2025, so I see no reason to mess with it, especially
given the utter hell our DMVs have become.

Rhino

2019-08-09 00:46:39 UTC

I figure that's a great way to get out of jury duty.
"I showed up when and where I was told to but the guys in uniform with guns
wouldn't let me in the door. Sorry!"

Post by Adam H. Kerman
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.

I can use my federal creds for air travel and even when I retire, I've got
a passport valid until 2025, so I see no reason to mess with it, especially
given the utter hell our DMVs have become.

Do your DMVs let you remove plates and licenses online like our do? They
started offering this a few years back and it's awesome. It greatly
reduces the need to ever go into their offices.

--
Rhino

Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-09 02:03:34 UTC

Post by Rhino
Do your DMVs let you remove plates and licenses online like our do? They
started offering this a few years back and it's awesome. It greatly
reduces the need to ever go into their offices.

Oh, we get this weird notice in the mail with a username and password to
order through the Web site plus pay a surcharge for reducing paperwork.

We just get stickers these days. It's been decades since one had to put
new plates on annually.

In my state, an address change can be done by mail or on the Web site
and renewal forms will be sent to the new address for vehicie
registration and driver's license renewal. Only a truck driver requiring
a commercial license must carry a license with his current address on
it, which is ridiculous as every cop checks the on line driver's
database and the commercial license is a nationwide database.

A driver with no chargable infractions can get one driver's license
renewal by mail, and you got a sticker to extend it four years. It
doesn't apply to senior citizens who are old enough to be required to
take a driving test with each renewal.

Well, Homeland Security began bitching about that as "not secure" and
airline security refused to believe that the license had been renewed.
It's not like the photograph and face still don't match.

By next year, it'll all be DNA registration.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 01:03:43 UTC

I figure that's a great way to get out of jury duty.

Only in Federal courthouses!

Post by BTR1701
"I showed up when and where I was told to but the guys in uniform with guns
wouldn't let me in the door. Sorry!"

I bet that wouldn't stop our guys for putting out an arrest warrant for you.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.

I can use my federal creds for air travel and even when I retire, I've got
a passport valid until 2025, so I see no reason to mess with it, especially
given the utter hell our DMVs have become.

The stuff they're sending me says we have to have Travel ID in 2020.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-09 02:04:53 UTC

I figure that's a great way to get out of jury duty.

Only in Federal courthouses!

Post by BTR1701
"I showed up when and where I was told to but the guys in uniform with guns
wouldn't let me in the door. Sorry!"

I bet that wouldn't stop our guys for putting out an arrest warrant for you.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.

I can use my federal creds for air travel and even when I retire, I've got
a passport valid until 2025, so I see no reason to mess with it, especially
given the utter hell our DMVs have become.

The stuff they're sending me says we have to have Travel ID in 2020.

If Arizona means it's Real ID compliant, why not say that directly
instead of giving it a different name? And that's still only for
boarding airplanes and federal security, not for anything else.

shawn

2019-08-09 02:15:43 UTC

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 02:04:53 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

I figure that's a great way to get out of jury duty.

Only in Federal courthouses!

Post by BTR1701
"I showed up when and where I was told to but the guys in uniform with guns
wouldn't let me in the door. Sorry!"

I bet that wouldn't stop our guys for putting out an arrest warrant for you.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.

I can use my federal creds for air travel and even when I retire, I've got
a passport valid until 2025, so I see no reason to mess with it, especially
given the utter hell our DMVs have become.

The stuff they're sending me says we have to have Travel ID in 2020.

If Arizona means it's Real ID compliant, why not say that directly
instead of giving it a different name? And that's still only for
boarding airplanes and federal security, not for anything else.

I guess that's because they wanted to be able to easily tell people
about the two choices of ID they offered. One is a driver's license
and the other is a Travel ID (which is the driver's license with Real
ID.) So if you were not going to be traveling just get the driver's
license. If you were going to be traveling by air then get the Travel
ID. I'm going to guess there's also a cost difference between the two.
Certainly the Travel ID (Real ID compliant) is going to be more of a
hassle to get.

If they just went with only the Real ID version it would have been
simpler, but Arizona and a few other states wanted to put off
requiring Real ID as long as they could.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 03:15:34 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put
a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

I figure that's a great way to get out of jury duty.

Only in Federal courthouses!

Post by BTR1701
"I showed up when and where I was told to but the guys in uniform with guns
wouldn't let me in the door. Sorry!"

I bet that wouldn't stop our guys for putting out an arrest warrant for you.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
If you can still use your current license for ID when flying, I wouldn't
bother till it's time to renew.

I can use my federal creds for air travel and even when I retire, I've got
a passport valid until 2025, so I see no reason to mess with it, especially
given the utter hell our DMVs have become.

The stuff they're sending me says we have to have Travel ID in 2020.

If Arizona means it's Real ID compliant, why not say that directly
instead of giving it a different name? And that's still only for
boarding airplanes and federal security, not for anything else.

Here's the text (they send every month):

News from the ADOT Motor Vehicle Division
Travel ID, Commercial Driver License changes and more

Will your license fly?

There are about 340 business days between now and October 1, 2020. On that
date, TSA airport security checkpoints will require travelers to show
federally-approved identification. Flyers who don’t have the proper ID will
be delayed and possibly have their travel plans ruined.

Don’t be grounded, get your Travel ID!

The Travel ID is an Arizona driver license or ID card that meets the federal
requirements, and you need to get one at an MVD office or selected Authorized
Third Party provider. You can make an MVD appointment at
www.servicearizona.com.

Before coming in, please visit the Travel ID website
atwww.azdot.gov/travelid. You can begin the application process and ensure
that you have all the documents you need to get the Travel ID.

Will your license fly? Be sure with the Travel ID.

********************

also

"The TravelID is the credential that complies with the federal REALID Act of
2005. TheTravelID is available as both a driver license and identification
card. As its name suggests, Arizona residents will have the option to obtain
a TravelID."

I have no idea how the fuck the name 'TravelID' suggests an option. I have no
idea why the fuck we aren't doing REALID but something of our own that
supposedly complies.

"The Arizona TravelDL/ID may be accepted by the federal government for
official purposes defined as; boarding commercially operated airline flights,
entering federal buildings, or gaining access to military bases, or nuclear
power plants."

So, yeah, without the gold star, I can't get into federal buildings. It's
been a long time since I did any military contracting, I doubt I'll need to
get on a military base again, or access a nuclear power plant. Also note that
it says 'the Arizona version MAY work' Lovely!

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BTR1701

2019-08-09 04:50:35 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
News from the ADOT Motor Vehicle Division
Travel ID, Commercial Driver License changes and more
Will your license fly?
There are about 340 business days between now and October 1, 2020. On that
date, TSA airport security checkpoints will require travelers to show
federally-approved identification. Flyers who don’t have the proper ID will
be delayed and possibly have their travel plans ruined.
Don’t be grounded, get your Travel ID!

You don't actually need one to fly. You just to have to have one if you
want to use your driver license to get through the TSA checkpoint. You can
still use a passport if you like. And you *can* get on a plane without any
ID at all. They have to make allowances for people whose ID is lost or
stolen. It'd be a real bitch to be on vacation in Hawaii, have your wallet
stolen, then be told, "Sorry, you can't fly home since you don't have ID."
(And since renting a car in Hawaii to drive home is a non-starter, you'd
essentially be stranded.) So yeah, you can get on a plane with no ID, it
just takes a lot longer to get through the checkpoint, so leave yourself a
generous time buffer if you try it.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 05:24:54 UTC

As much as I hate to fly, if they keep me waiting long enough, I'd end up
swimming home.

Or staying on in Hawai'i ...

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BTR1701

2019-08-09 05:31:55 UTC

As much as I hate to fly, if they keep me waiting long enough, I'd end up
swimming home.
Or staying on in Hawai'i ...

If you have the right contacts, you could have the TSA's requirements
overruled via means and methods.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 14:42:28 UTC

As much as I hate to fly, if they keep me waiting long enough, I'd end up
swimming home.
Or staying on in Hawai'i ...

If you have the right contacts, you could have the TSA's requirements
overruled via means and methods.

Oh! Damn. I saw somebody else invoke Ways and Means a few days ago. A rerun
... probably NCIS Los Angeles. CBS must have sent out a memo.

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trotsky

2019-08-09 10:31:44 UTC

As much as I hate to fly,

Does it make your wrists even limper?

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A Friend

2019-08-08 20:44:56 UTC

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 21:23:19 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?

What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

A Friend

2019-08-08 21:56:19 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?

Some kind of glorified certified all-color birth certificate. The
photostat of the real one, which I've been using all my life, is
suddenly no longer valid.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I don't know. Either federal leadership has utterly failed on this
point, or they just don't want to do it.

I'm also being told that I really should have a valid, current
passport. I haven't had one of those since the Bicentennial. In fact,
the thing even says Bicentennial all over it. Whoo-hoo!

I just want to be able to drive. I don't know why this is suddenly
such a big deal.

Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 22:09:07 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?

Some kind of glorified certified all-color birth certificate. The
photostat of the real one, which I've been using all my life, is
suddenly no longer valid.

Well, I'd let my driver's license lapse a number of years ago and
couldn't find my CERTIFIED photostat birth certificate, so they made me
wait a couple of weeks till one of those documents was printed by the
state health department. And they claimed it was a bigger deal to get
both parents named on it, instead of just one. I asked for both.

It was expensive, you're right.

Then the photostat showed up.

Sorry you were put through so much crap.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 00:58:46 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?

Some kind of glorified certified all-color birth certificate. The
photostat of the real one, which I've been using all my life, is
suddenly no longer valid.

Me too. Mine had to have a raised embossed detail on it.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I don't know. Either federal leadership has utterly failed on this
point, or they just don't want to do it.
I'm also being told that I really should have a valid, current
passport. I haven't had one of those since the Bicentennial. In fact,
the thing even says Bicentennial all over it. Whoo-hoo!
I just want to be able to drive. I don't know why this is suddenly
such a big deal.

I haven't had a passport in over 50 years, and I don't have that one, and
that apparently makes it a nightmare I'm not interesting in entering.

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BTR1701

2019-08-09 04:50:35 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?

Some kind of glorified certified all-color birth certificate. The
photostat of the real one, which I've been using all my life, is
suddenly no longer valid.

Me too. Mine had to have a raised embossed detail on it.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I don't know. Either federal leadership has utterly failed on this
point, or they just don't want to do it.
I'm also being told that I really should have a valid, current
passport. I haven't had one of those since the Bicentennial. In fact,
the thing even says Bicentennial all over it. Whoo-hoo!
I just want to be able to drive. I don't know why this is suddenly
such a big deal.

I haven't had a passport in over 50 years, and I don't have that one, and
that apparently makes it a nightmare I'm not interesting in entering.

My passport renewal was shockingly easy, if not inappropriately expensive--
$110? what am I paying all these taxes for?-- just download and fill out a
one page form from the State Department web site and send it in along with
the old passport, the fee, and a current pic. Getting the pic taken was the
hardest part of the whole process.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 05:48:45 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and
they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?

Some kind of glorified certified all-color birth certificate. The
photostat of the real one, which I've been using all my life, is
suddenly no longer valid.

Me too. Mine had to have a raised embossed detail on it.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I don't know. Either federal leadership has utterly failed on this
point, or they just don't want to do it.
I'm also being told that I really should have a valid, current
passport. I haven't had one of those since the Bicentennial. In fact,
the thing even says Bicentennial all over it. Whoo-hoo!
I just want to be able to drive. I don't know why this is suddenly
such a big deal.

I haven't had a passport in over 50 years, and I don't have that one, and
that apparently makes it a nightmare I'm not interesting in entering.

We have these little shops in strip malls all over that will take a passport
pic (and run DNA tests) which is kinda scary.

See, you *had* the old passport. That's where I hit the first snag. I had a
passport when I was a wee lad. I don't think I ever used it. I haven't seen
it since I was a pre-teen. But it existed ... so somehow I fall into 'lost
passport' Hell, which required me to have all sorts of stuff I didn't (but
now have some of in place because I had to get it for Social Security).

Hmm. Most of the websites look to be identity theft scams!

Okay, I can't renew. Passport must be less than 15 years old, and you must
have been more than 16 when you got it. So that's out.

To get a NEW passport (which includes replacing lost) you have to go in
person to a 'passport acceptance facility' and have a Form DS-11, DS-64 (lost
or stolen passport), proof of citizenship, government issued photo ID, color
passport photo, (originals and photocopies of everything) and fee payment.
Looks like the main post office is the acceptance facility. Appointment only.
Huh, they can take pictures there. Who knew? Must have a back room I've never
seen. There are 7 appointments available before noon tomorrow. Guess they
close early on Fridays. $15 including photo. Says it takes 15 minutes.

$190 total for passport book and card

Cool, the 'passport card' is smaller, cheaper, and good for the Bermuda
Triangle!

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Ed Stasiak

2019-08-09 13:52:41 UTC

anim8rfsk
Looks like the main post office is the acceptance facility. Appointment only.
Huh, they can take pictures there. Who knew?

They no doubt use a digital camera nowadays. In the past, when I had to renew
my concealed pistol license I had to go to a photography shop that had a special
passport camera with dual lenses that took two simultaneous photos, as one pic
would go on the CPL card and the other got sent to the state police but the last
couple of times I renewed, the photo was taken at the county clerks office by a
regular employee using a digital camera.

$190 total for passport book and card

$110 or thereabouts every five years for a CPL renewal nowadays. Used to be
every three years and you were required to retake a CPL training class at $100+
as well as pay for a new passport photo ($10-15 IIRC) and get re-fingerprinted
for another $5 (that’s also done digitally now).

Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-09 06:50:47 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?

Some kind of glorified certified all-color birth certificate. The
photostat of the real one, which I've been using all my life, is
suddenly no longer valid.

Me too. Mine had to have a raised embossed detail on it.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I don't know. Either federal leadership has utterly failed on this
point, or they just don't want to do it.
I'm also being told that I really should have a valid, current
passport. I haven't had one of those since the Bicentennial. In fact,
the thing even says Bicentennial all over it. Whoo-hoo!
I just want to be able to drive. I don't know why this is suddenly
such a big deal.

I haven't had a passport in over 50 years, and I don't have that one, and
that apparently makes it a nightmare I'm not interesting in entering.

But you can renew it by mail only if the previous one was issued within
the last 15 years. I think anim has passed that point and would have to
apply in person for a new one.

anim, I finally looked it up. A state-issued Real ID-compliant driver's
license is NOT the equivalent of a border-crossing card. I confused it
with the Enhanced Driver's License, issued only by state of Washington,
Minnesota, Michigan, New York, and Vermont. Four Canadian provinces issue
them - British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec - and can be used
to enter the United States by land or sea.

Ed Stasiak

2019-08-09 14:00:18 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
Adam H. Kerman
anim, I finally looked it up. A state-issued Real ID-compliant driver's
license is NOT the equivalent of a border-crossing card. I confused it
with the Enhanced Driver's License, issued only by state of Washington,
Minnesota, Michigan, New York, and Vermont. Four Canadian provinces
issue them - British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec - and can
be used to enter the United States by land or sea.

My buddy has an Enhanced Drivers License as his in-laws have vacation
property along Lake Eire but because it’s got an RFID chip in it, it has to be
carried in a metal foil lined pouch, which has the added annoyance that it
doesn’t fit in the credit card slots in a normal wallet, forcing him to carry it
in the wallet’s large cash pouch.

The EDL isn't required for everybody yet but they will be.

Nyssa

2019-08-09 15:52:59 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
Adam H. Kerman
anim, I finally looked it up. A state-issued Real
ID-compliant driver's license is NOT the equivalent of a
border-crossing card. I confused it with the Enhanced
Driver's License, issued only by state of Washington,
Minnesota, Michigan, New York, and Vermont. Four Canadian
provinces issue them - British Columbia, Manitoba,
Ontario, and Quebec - and can be used to enter the United
States by land or sea.

My buddy has an Enhanced Drivers License as his in-laws
have vacation property along Lake Eire but because it?s
got an RFID chip in it, it has to be carried in a metal
foil lined pouch, which has the added annoyance that it
doesn?t fit in the credit card slots in a normal wallet,
forcing him to carry it in the wallet?s large cash pouch.
The EDL isn't required for everybody yet but they will be.

I received my renewed passport back in November. It's got
the chip in it too. So does my new ATM card, credit card,
debit card, and driver's license.

So I purchased an RFID wallet for the whole shebang. Nice
saddle leather with pockets for passport and cards. Cost
a few dollars and is larger than I'd like, but better than
wrapping the lot in foil and having to unwrap whichever
one I happen to need at the moment.

Nyssa, who doesn't want to walk around radiating a bunch of
info to whoever happens to have a reader gadget aimed at her

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 17:30:35 UTC

ICE detains 680 removable aliens
August 9, 2019 at 8:52:59 AM MST

Post by The Horny Goat
Adam H. Kerman
anim, I finally looked it up. A state-issued Real
ID-compliant driver's license is NOT the equivalent of a
border-crossing card. I confused it with the Enhanced
Driver's License, issued only by state of Washington,
Minnesota, Michigan, New York, and Vermont. Four Canadian
provinces issue them - British Columbia, Manitoba,
Ontario, and Quebec - and can be used to enter the United
States by land or sea.

I received my renewed passport back in November. It's got
the chip in it too. So does my new ATM card, credit card,

CHASE sent me the new metal (and, yes, there's a youtube on how to grind the
edge to razor sharpness to make a deadly weapon) credit card with the chip in
it, but the iPhone pays my bills so I never use the CC anyway.

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Ed Stasiak

2019-08-09 17:56:18 UTC

Post by Nyssa

Nyssa
Ed Stasiak
My buddy has an Enhanced Drivers License as his in-laws
have vacation property along Lake Eire but because it?s
got an RFID chip in it, it has to be carried in a metal
foil lined pouch, which has the added annoyance that it
doesn?t fit in the credit card slots in a normal wallet,
forcing him to carry it in the wallet?s large cash pouch.

So I purchased an RFID wallet for the whole shebang. Nice
saddle leather with pockets for passport and cards. Cost
a few dollars and is larger than I'd like, but better than
wrapping the lot in foil and having to unwrap whichever
one I happen to need at the moment.

It’s good to see that the wallet industry has taken this into account.

I’ve still got my old DKNY brand wallet that pushing 30 years but it’s one
of the few I've seen that has the openings for credit card slots facing in
towards the hinge, (so they won't fall out) so I’ll hold on to it.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 14:43:47 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and
they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?

Some kind of glorified certified all-color birth certificate. The
photostat of the real one, which I've been using all my life, is
suddenly no longer valid.

Me too. Mine had to have a raised embossed detail on it.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I don't know. Either federal leadership has utterly failed on this
point, or they just don't want to do it.
I'm also being told that I really should have a valid, current
passport. I haven't had one of those since the Bicentennial. In fact,
the thing even says Bicentennial all over it. Whoo-hoo!
I just want to be able to drive. I don't know why this is suddenly
such a big deal.

I haven't had a passport in over 50 years, and I don't have that one, and
that apparently makes it a nightmare I'm not interesting in entering.

But you can renew it by mail only if the previous one was issued within
the last 15 years. I think anim has passed that point and would have to
apply in person for a new one.
anim, I finally looked it up. A state-issued Real ID-compliant driver's
license is NOT the equivalent of a border-crossing card. I confused it
with the Enhanced Driver's License, issued only by state of Washington,
Minnesota, Michigan, New York, and Vermont. Four Canadian provinces issue
them - British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec - and can be used
to enter the United States by land or sea.

So now we have REALID, Arizona TRAVELID, and "Enhanced Driver's License"?
Lovely.

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BTR1701

2019-08-08 22:08:55 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

California can't even interact seamlessly with itself. Doing it with other
states is out of the question.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 00:54:14 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I had to pay $60 to get a duplicate birth certificate from California.

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shawn

2019-08-09 01:12:59 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I had to pay $60 to get a duplicate birth certificate from California.

I think I paid $0 dollars to get my birth certificate from Florida.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 01:37:34 UTC

Post by shawn

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I had to pay $60 to get a duplicate birth certificate from California.

I think I paid $0 dollars to get my birth certificate from Florida.

That would be less.

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TeeJay1952

2019-08-09 11:54:13 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I had to pay $60 to get a duplicate birth certificate from California.

My whole life my parents made a big deal out of my first name being
spelled with proud Irish heritage Terrance and not the dispicable
English variant Terrence. This is what my Social Security, life time
employment excetera had recorded. When I stopped driving (Kids took
keys) I got Real ID that insisted I was the former and not the latter.
$250 and 6 months lawyering straightened that out and now I sit on my
couch properly IDed.
Tee (Lost in the Wilderness) Jay

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 14:47:26 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I had to pay $60 to get a duplicate birth certificate from California.

Heh.

My Dad's birth and death certificates have his first and middle names
reversed from each other. Of course he was long dead before I found this out.
I'll never know which was right.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-09 17:59:18 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I had to pay $60 to get a duplicate birth certificate from California.

Bureaucrats made an error and you had to hire a lawyer to get them to
correct it? Gah

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 18:20:49 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to get me to
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and
they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I had to pay $60 to get a duplicate birth certificate from California.

Bureaucrats made an error and you had to hire a lawyer to get them to
correct it? Gah

That's routine.

Bank of America said I couldn't have Mom's money because the trust was titled
'Survivor's Trust' and as the survivor I couldn't have the money because
there wasn't another survivor listed to follow me. So I had to pay a lawyer
to print out a new cover page for the damn thing that said 'Fred's Trust' and
despite that being wildly wrong in every possible way, BoA accepted it and
gave me the funds.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-09 18:50:55 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
Speaking of which, I'm getting emails from the DMV trying to

get me to

Post by anim8rfsk
upgrade my shiny new drivers' license to some flavor of Real ID, and
they
put a gold star in the corner of it. Seriously. That's the

difference.

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

What document?
What's the story on that? Why can't the various state drivers' services
bureaus interact seemlessly like they're supposed to?

I had to pay $60 to get a duplicate birth certificate from California.

Bureaucrats made an error and you had to hire a lawyer to get them to
correct it? Gah

That's routine.
Bank of America said I couldn't have Mom's money because the trust was titled
'Survivor's Trust' and as the survivor I couldn't have the money because
there wasn't another survivor listed to follow me. So I had to pay a lawyer
to print out a new cover page for the damn thing that said 'Fred's Trust' and
despite that being wildly wrong in every possible way, BoA accepted it and
gave me the funds.

Yes, you explained that and you should have sued for pain and suffering.
It's a survivor trust. As the survivor, you were the beneficiary. That's
how trusts work!

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 00:44:31 UTC

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

Not renewal - I renewed 6 months ago. This is new panicky change-over.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-09 02:06:54 UTC

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

Not renewal - I renewed 6 months ago. This is new panicky change-over.

I still don't see why you have to cooperate by renewing early if there's
no benefit to you in any way.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 03:16:01 UTC

Yeah. license renewal. I just had to pay $55 to New York City for a
document to prove I'm not a fucking terrorist. I'm going to get that
money back, even if I have to steal pencils from the DMV.

Not renewal - I renewed 6 months ago. This is new panicky change-over.

I still don't see why you have to cooperate by renewing early if there's
no benefit to you in any way.

nope. I should in theory never have to renew again.

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The Horny Goat

2019-08-08 19:46:17 UTC

On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 17:17:59 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently, proving
they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

I think the problem is proving they *knowingly* employed illegals.
If somebody presents you with a fake social security card, how are you
supposed to know?

I've never heard of a forged document (SIN/SSID) being presented to an
employer.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
Because you have to accept multiple documents, usually two unless the
new hire shows a passport. The Social Security Card isn't mandatory, but
it's helpful for correctly entering name and SSN.

That's crazy - as I previously noted, no Canadian employer is required
to check further (other than verifying the number) unless it starts
with 9. A simple Google search will find the verification hotline.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
If the name and SSN don't match, the employer receives a "no match"
letter from Social Security Administration and the employee is required
to re-present documents.
E-Verify has never been mandatory (not to mention, it's been a very bug
prone system for two decades). However, a good payroll administration
will submit new hires through the SSA database in batches. You really
really don't want to wait till the close of the calendar year when
preparing W-2s, because it's way too much work at that point.

To me that is nothing short of bizarre as 95%+ of numbers don't change
from year to year and at least in Canada your number is with you for
life with the sole exception that immigrants with "9" numbers are
reissued new numbers on gaining citizenship. As part of the
citizenship process are told they do have to apply for a new number.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
For those of you who've never done payroll, W-2s are filed with SSA, not
IRS. SSA then inputs withholding data for Social Security taxes and
federal income taxes but NOT withholding for state and local taxes,
which is why paper copies of W-2s have to be attached to state and local
tax returns. SSA usually doesn't finish all the data entry (assuming no
government shut down) till something like September of the following
calendar year, at which point vast number of "no match" letters go out.

Equally bizarre based on my payroll experience. In Canada provincial
income taxes are filed with your federal return and are a fixed %age
of the federal taxes as modified by a few provincial specific tax
credits. Provinces can opt out of this system but only in Quebec does
one have to file separate returns.

The idea that SSA can be as much as 6 months behind on their "not
match" letters staggers me.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's an incredibly stupid system designed to be bureaucratic and
ineffective.

In Canada the system is designed to make it as easy as possible to
pursue tax cheats. Though we still do get our share!

I get that but the crime is committed by the contractor not their
customers. If I (my store is a 'bricks and mortar' specialty crafts
store) do something awful the tax man is coming after me not my
customers.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
Same with maid services.
Note htat a lot of the time, these people should be on payroll, not
independent contractors. If you use the boss's tools and the boss finds
the job for you, you're an employee, not a contractor.

Yup - and the employee / subcontractor difference is regularly abused
particularly at severance.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
We're not talking about catching small businesses with tiny payrolls
here. We're talking about medium sized factories with medium sized
payrolls that, coincidentally, employ no one eligible to work among all
the workers on the factory floor.
In these cases, it's impossible for the factory owner not to be
complicit.

125% agreement. In my previously mentioned Irish case I've heard the
young lady wants to do another 3 year term abroad this time in
Australia. I know she's conscientious enough she'll have her papers in
order.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-08 20:33:04 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 17:17:59 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently, proving
they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

I think the problem is proving they *knowingly* employed illegals.
If somebody presents you with a fake social security card, how are you
supposed to know?

I've never heard of a forged document (SIN/SSID) being presented to an
employer.

Equally bizarre based on my payroll experience. In Canada provincial
income taxes are filed with your federal return and are a fixed %age
of the federal taxes as modified by a few provincial specific tax
credits. Provinces can opt out of this system but only in Quebec does
one have to file separate returns.
The idea that SSA can be as much as 6 months behind on their "not
match" letters staggers me.

This is the same SSA that insisted the 'born in CA" on my birth certificate
meant Canada instead of California and hence denied me benefits, although
they never called ICE or anybody for what obviously was an illegal alien.

This is the same SSA that has two kinds of offices with two levels of service
and WILL NOT TELL YOU WHICH IS WHICH unless you come in in person and take a
number and wait in line. And has armed guards take any water away from you at
the door.

This is the same SSA that offers appointments but keeps their phone number a
secret - you can only call the main number in Washington D.C. and they won't
tell you the local office number either.

That SSA? You're surprised they lag behind?

Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's an incredibly stupid system designed to be bureaucratic and
ineffective.

In Canada the system is designed to make it as easy as possible to
pursue tax cheats. Though we still do get our share!

Yup - and the employee / subcontractor difference is regularly abused
particularly at severance.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 21:50:27 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
This is the same SSA that insisted the 'born in CA" on my birth certificate
meant Canada instead of California and hence denied me benefits, although
they never called ICE or anybody for what obviously was an illegal alien.
. . .

Hey! California isn't another state. It's from a separate space-time
continuum.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 00:57:02 UTC

Hey! California isn't another state. It's from a separate space-time
continuum.

It's not even a real country anyway.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 21:48:17 UTC

Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently,
proving they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

I think the problem is proving they *knowingly* employed illegals.
If somebody presents you with a fake social security card, how are you
supposed to know?

I've never heard of a forged document (SIN/SSID) being presented to an
employer.

Uh, ok. It's a frequently used tv plot, and a very common real-world
situation. How do you think an alien for whom it's illegal to work
obtains a job?

In the United States, the Social Security Administration is now fulfilling
a job they were never set up to do: verify employment eligibility. The
Social Security Number should never have become a near-universal
identification number, but that's what it's become. Right from the start,
because the Social Security Act included a related act imposing taxes,
the Social Security Number was used as the taxpayer identification number
for individuals.

Military servicemen used to have to memorize alphanumeric military
service numbers, but for decades, the SSN became the military service
number. Police department use SSNs to enter arrests into databases,
including databases shared with state police and FBI.

I'm glad everything is perfect in Canada but it's not in this country.
I sure find it hard to believe that there's no such thing as a Canadian
"no match" letter if the annual payroll returns filed with your tax
collector have a mismatch between an employee's name and taxpayer
identification number. What, they just ignore it during data entry?

You're not listening. I said it's part of the process of hiring a new
employee. Once the name-number match has been performed, there's no need to
do it on an ongoing basis for an existing employee. Technically, there's no
requirement to verify at all and the newly hired employee isn't required
to show a Social Security Card. But this puts the payroll administrator
in a spot because the annual payroll returns will be questioned for
specific individuals whose names and SSNs don't match, and you don't want
to receive a huge quantity of these all at once a year and a half after
hiring, especially for employees who may no longer be on payroll. You
want it taken care of as close to the new hire date as possible.

Ok. As I said, there's no reason why the federal government couldn't
perform data entry for state and local income tax withholding on behalf
of other state and local tax departments.

btw, not all states impose income taxes. Local income taxes are imposed
only in a few states.

Post by The Horny Goat
The idea that SSA can be as much as 6 months behind on their "not
match" letters staggers me.

More like 8 months.

The manual forms still use 1950s scanning technology with special red
ink designed to "drop out" during the scanning process. Employers with
large payrolls are required to send in information returns
electronically.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's an incredibly stupid system designed to be bureaucratic and
ineffective.

In Canada the system is designed to make it as easy as possible to
pursue tax cheats. Though we still do get our share!

This has nothing to do with tax cheats and very little to do with
employment eligibility of aliens.

Post by anim8rfsk
I mean, most of us in the southwest that hire small gardening companies
have almost certainly employed illegals, if not directly, then one step
down. I know the boss of my guys was born here. When I replaced the
fence on my property with a block wall, I know damn well the workers
were undocumented day labor, even though the contractor wasn't.

I get that but the crime is committed by the contractor not their
customers.

What crime? That is an example of someone who is truly a contractor and
not an employee. A gardener brings his own tools, finds his own
customers.

Post by The Horny Goat
If I (my store is a 'bricks and mortar' specialty crafts
store) do something awful the tax man is coming after me not my
customers.

If Canada uses the same common law concept of an employee versus a
contractor, then retailers should indeed have all clerks on payroll. But
you hear often enough of businesses whose owners "save themselves"
payroll taxes by pretending not to have employees, only contractors.
It's a very poorly enforced concept, however.

Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .

The Horny Goat

2019-08-08 19:33:41 UTC

Post by anim8rfsk
If somebody presents you with a fake social security card, how are you
supposed to know?
I mean, most of us in the southwest that hire small gardening companies have
almost certainly employed illegals, if not directly, then one step down. I
know the boss of my guys was born here. When I replaced the fence on my
property with a block wall, I know damn well the workers were undocumented
day labor, even though the contractor wasn't.

In more than 20 years of doing payroll I have never been presented
with a fake card or one that made me suspicious.

If the attitude in your part of the country is 'wink wink nudge nudge'
then it's not surprising there's the problem one hears reported
regularly.

And it clearly must be as shows like Jane the Virgin discuss
immigration issues regularly as a minor theme.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-08 19:59:48 UTC

In more than 20 years of doing payroll I have never been presented
with a fake card or one that made me suspicious.

I'm told it's routine for migrant farm workers. There's supposedly an
epidemic of people stealing SS numbers; they must be using them for
*something*

Post by The Horny Goat
If the attitude in your part of the country is 'wink wink nudge nudge'
then it's not surprising there's the problem one hears reported
regularly.
And it clearly must be as shows like Jane the Virgin discuss
immigration issues regularly as a minor theme.

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Rhino

2019-08-08 20:24:50 UTC

In more than 20 years of doing payroll I have never been presented
with a fake card or one that made me suspicious.

I'm told it's routine for migrant farm workers. There's supposedly an
epidemic of people stealing SS numbers; they must be using them for
*something*

A few years back, I heard that Obama's SSN tracked back to a dead guy in
a state he'd never visited or something along that line....

--
Rhino

Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 22:21:02 UTC

Post by Rhino
A few years back, I heard that Obama's SSN tracked back to a dead guy in
a state he'd never visited or something along that line....

An illegal alien working illegally might be able to get away with that
if he changes jobs every few months and tries to leave before "no match"
letter is given to his employer.

anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 01:05:11 UTC

Post by Rhino
A few years back, I heard that Obama's SSN tracked back to a dead guy in
a state he'd never visited or something along that line....

An illegal alien working illegally might be able to get away with that
if he changes jobs every few months and tries to leave before "no match"
letter is given to his employer.

Like Obama did?

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anim8rfsk

2019-08-09 00:31:03 UTC

ICE detains 680 removable aliens
August 8, 2019 at 1:24:50 PM MST

In more than 20 years of doing payroll I have never been presented
with a fake card or one that made me suspicious.

I'm told it's routine for migrant farm workers. There's supposedly an
epidemic of people stealing SS numbers; they must be using them for
*something*

A few years back, I heard that Obama's SSN tracked back to a dead guy in
a state he'd never visited or something along that line....

I didn't know Kenya was a state.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 22:19:12 UTC

In more than 20 years of doing payroll I have never been presented
with a fake card or one that made me suspicious.

I'm told it's routine for migrant farm workers. There's supposedly an
epidemic of people stealing SS numbers; they must be using them for
*something*

Hold it. Itinerant farm labor is an EXCEPTION to the 1986 act. They are
not subject to employment verification checks and their earned income
isn't subject to Social Security taxes nor unemployment taxes. There's
no income tax withholding from their pay either.

Farmers lobbied hard for this, otherwise there'd be no pickers.

They aren't even illegal aliens when performing this work because they
haven't immigrated.

Those factory workers in Mississippi immigrated illegally and were
working illegally with forged identities. It's a completely different
situation under federal law.

Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 22:13:18 UTC

In more than 20 years of doing payroll I have never been presented
with a fake card or one that made me suspicious.

Ok!

Isn't that what I said from the root article in the thread, that the
owner of the factories had to be complicit in this because of the
extremely large number of alleged illegal aliens on the payroll?

The show itself "immigrated" from Venezuela! Is there a Canadian
adaptation as well, or are you watching the US adaptation?

Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 17:04:47 UTC

Post by RichA

Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently,
proving they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

You seem to not grasp that with that many on the payroll, the document
forger himself would have been an H.R. contractor.

The Horny Goat

2019-08-08 19:31:12 UTC

Post by RichA
Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently, proving they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

Bull - do they have a valid social security number or not?

Canada has a similar system and as somebody who's done payrol for 20+
years it just isn't that difficult.

Not if you're staying strictly within the law that is. If a company
isn't then they deserve the book thrown at them. Not only are they
employing illegals but almost certainly not submitting withholding
taxes either.

As a small business owner I can't imagine doing anything that would
put me at risk of BOTH IRS and ICE!

Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 22:23:54 UTC

Post by RichA
Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently, proving they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

Bull - do they have a valid social security number or not?

Dude: I was talking about prosecuting the owner of the factory, whom I
believe is clearly complicit in all this identify fraud and illegal
hiring. I wasn't talking about prosecuting the employee for identity
fraud. It's so large scale, it's the employer doing it.

shawn

2019-08-08 23:51:41 UTC

On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 22:23:54 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Post by RichA
Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently, proving they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

Bull - do they have a valid social security number or not?

With that many people being involved I wouldn't be shocked to find out
that the employer was providing them with their fake IDs. That's a
hell of a lot of people to all be working at the same place with fake
IDs.

trotsky

2019-08-09 10:36:20 UTC

Post by RichA

Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently, proving they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

So instead we detain the migrant workers at a cost of $770 per person
per day. So instead of contributing to our society, they cost us money,
billions, per Trump. What a shithole this is turning into.

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FPP

2019-08-09 11:06:30 UTC

Post by trotsky

Too hard to prosecute, according to federal prosecutors. Apparently,
proving they employed illegals isn't as easy as it sounds.

Children were left in daycare because nobody picked them up. One girl
was wandering around the schoolyard because their parent weren't there
to get her.

None of this is accidental. Usually when this type of raid happens,
they alert child services to take care of the kids whose parents aren't
coming home.

"More than 24 hours after 680 people were detained by U.S. Immigration
and Customs Enforcement, leaving an unknown number of children separated
from their parents, the agency had not made contact with the Mississippi
Department of Child Protection Services.

As of Thursday morning, the state agency did not know how many children
were impacted by Wednesday's raids. "We've been up all night trying to
figure this out," said Lea Anne Brandon, MDCPS spokesperson.

MDCPS was not notified of the raids beforehand, Brandon said, and has
yet to receive any contact from ICE officials."

That didn't happen here because cruelty isn't a bug in their policy,
it's a feature. Cruelty is the goal. And now the human filth here will
fall all over themselves making excuses why this isn't our problem.

They're trash, and now they'll prove it once again. Watch.

--
Trump: "I'm rich." (* but you can't see my taxes.)
"I'm smart." (* but you can't see my grades.)
"I'm totally exonerated." (* but you can't see the report.)

Ed Stasiak

2019-08-09 14:26:54 UTC

trotsky
So instead of contributing to our society

Illegal migration is a net loss for America, it’s only of value to Wall Street.

Ubiquitous

2019-08-08 17:18:30 UTC

Post by Adam H. Kerman
Can anyone explain how very large employers keep getting away with
breaking this law?

In addition to certain politicians don't enforce the law when it
suits their agenda?

And you posted this off-topic article here because?

--
Watching Democrats come up with schemes to "catch Trump" is like
watching Wile E. Coyote trying to catch Road Runner.

Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 17:40:55 UTC

Speaking of hysterical over-the-top rhetoric, an immigrant rights lawyer
in Mississippi interviewed on NPR called the raids "terrorism", really
not the word to use after the El Paso mass murders over the weekend.

RichA

2019-08-09 00:00:21 UTC

Why not? Leftists make ridiculous comparisons all the time. Everyone who doesn't agree with everything in the agenda is a "nazi."

The Horny Goat

2019-08-08 19:27:56 UTC

On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 04:59:31 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Pardon my ignorance but as a Canadian employer I don't see that
compliance on verifying 'legal right to work' is all that difficult.

Canadian SIN numbers (equivalent to your SSID) are all 9 digits and
anybody whose starts with 1-8 is a Canadian citizen or permanent
resident with legal right to work. If the SIN # starts with a 9 it's
reserved for non-citizens who may or may not have the right to work
and there's a hotline you can call for details. (If an employer is
given a 1-8 number they can use the same hotline for verification but
its common for children to get SIN numbers early as there are tax
benefits for Mom and Dad for doing so)

We had a young lady working for us for 3 years on a temporary work
visa (from Ireland) and she left us two months before the end of her
visa (she and boyfriend were going to see more of Canada before
returning home shortly before Christmas)

Ended up giving her some tax advice (e.g. how to file a Canadian
return online as she had been subject to withholding tax for her 10
months in 2018 and had filed in 2017) which she found useful as the
Irish system is somewhat similar to the UK system (which I know a
little about but not much due to my daughter who has been living and
working in the UK these last 5 years) which is quite different from
the Canadian / US systems (which are quite similar to each other)

If you are hiring a person who doesn't HAVE a SIN number then it is
outright illegal to hire them - or at least to PAY them which most
employees do expect! I've not heard that forged credentials are an
issue in Canada anytime in the last 20 years I've been doing our
company's payroll.

So in most cases any working "non-documented" are working for "cash
under the table" which means that IRS is more scary to them than ICE!

anim8rfsk

2019-08-08 19:51:45 UTC

Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 04:59:31 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"

Pardon my ignorance but as a Canadian employer I don't see that
compliance on verifying 'legal right to work' is all that difficult.
Canadian SIN numbers (equivalent to your SSID) are all 9 digits and
anybody whose starts with 1-8 is a Canadian citizen or permanent
resident with legal right to work. If the SIN # starts with a 9 it's
reserved for non-citizens who may or may not have the right to work
and there's a hotline you can call for details. (If an employer is
given a 1-8 number they can use the same hotline for verification but
its common for children to get SIN numbers early as there are tax
benefits for Mom and Dad for doing so)
We had a young lady working for us for 3 years on a temporary work
visa (from Ireland) and she left us two months before the end of her
visa (she and boyfriend were going to see more of Canada before
returning home shortly before Christmas)
Ended up giving her some tax advice (e.g. how to file a Canadian
return online as she had been subject to withholding tax for her 10
months in 2018 and had filed in 2017) which she found useful as the
Irish system is somewhat similar to the UK system (which I know a
little about but not much due to my daughter who has been living and
working in the UK these last 5 years) which is quite different from
the Canadian / US systems (which are quite similar to each other)
If you are hiring a person who doesn't HAVE a SIN number then it is
outright illegal to hire them - or at least to PAY them which most
employees do expect! I've not heard that forged credentials are an
issue in Canada anytime in the last 20 years I've been doing our
company's payroll.
So in most cases any working "non-documented" are working for "cash
under the table" which means that IRS is more scary to them than ICE!

Apparently illegals buy social security cards, and the companies withhold to
those SS numbers, and years later IRS figures out something's wrong, but by
then the migrant workers have come and gone a dozen times. So everybody is
sort of complying, except the whole thing is a fraud.

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Adam H. Kerman

2019-08-08 21:59:03 UTC

Pardon my ignorance but as a Canadian employer I don't see that
compliance on verifying 'legal right to work' is all that difficult.

These days, there are multiple methods an employer can use to check
federal records. The thing is, federal records can be badly messed up.

Post by The Horny Goat
Canadian SIN numbers (equivalent to your SSID)

It's not SSID. It's SSN: Social Security Number. SSA is the Social
Security Administration, now a cabinet level department.

Post by The Horny Goat
are all 9 digits and anybody whose starts with 1-8 is a Canadian citizen
or permanent resident with legal right to work. If the SIN # starts with
a 9 it's reserved for non-citizens who may or may not have the right to
work and there's a hotline you can call for details. (If an employer
is given a 1-8 number they can use the same hotline for verification
but its common for children to get SIN numbers early as there are tax
benefits for Mom and Dad for doing so)

You're not explaining the bit in which the employer can easily tell that
the newly-hired employee didn't present forged documents. You're not
explaining the bit in which the newly hired employee has provided the
name and SIN of someone else and how the employer knows that identity
fraud has taken place.