Discussion:
The Old vs The New
(too old to reply)
BTR1701
2024-11-14 04:09:53 UTC
Permalink
'Bout damn time.


https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
Rhino
2024-11-14 04:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
I get the distinct impression that if you were to look up a meaning for
the phrase "kicking ass and taking names" you'd see a picture of Tom Homan.
--
Rhino
moviePig
2024-11-14 17:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/
avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
I get the distinct impression that if you were to look up a meaning for
the phrase "kicking ass and taking names" you'd see a picture of Tom Homan.
I wonder how *he'd* look with Kamala's sitcom-music behind him...
Rhino
2024-11-14 17:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/
avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
I get the distinct impression that if you were to look up a meaning
for the phrase "kicking ass and taking names" you'd see a picture of
Tom Homan.
I wonder how *he'd* look with Kamala's sitcom-music behind him...
The music has nothing to do with it. It's THE WORDS and ATTITUDE that
matter. Homan acknowledges that there is a problem and is determined to
solve it.
--
Rhino
moviePig
2024-11-14 19:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/
avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
I get the distinct impression that if you were to look up a meaning
for the phrase "kicking ass and taking names" you'd see a picture of
Tom Homan.
I wonder how *he'd* look with Kamala's sitcom-music behind him...
The music has nothing to do with it.
You should watch a typical movie without its background score.
Post by Rhino
It's THE WORDS and ATTITUDE that
matter. Homan acknowledges that there is a problem and is determined to
solve it.
Right now he seems to be busy celebrating his ire ...a state of mind I
rather not see in *anyone* making important decisions about *anything*.
Adam H. Kerman
2024-11-14 07:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."

Uh

That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
Rhino
2024-11-14 11:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
I cannot IMAGINE the courts upholding a decision to deport actual
citizens of the United States, even with a majority of conservative
judges and the Republicans in control of the House, Senate and the
Executive Branch unless perhaps an amendment had changed the
Constitution to allow deportation of citizens.

Surely the new "border czar" will, at most, put people who are citizens
in the difficult position of having their families split or leaving
VOLUNTARILY to keep the family together.

Has anyone heard if people that will be deported under this
administration will be allowed to apply to enter the country legally
after they've returned to their home countries (or perhaps a third
country) or will these deportees be forbidden to even apply for normal
immigration ever again? (I'm assuming they can't be banned from applying
for refugee status.)

Am I correct in thinking that American popular sentiment still supports
LEGAL immigration, even under the current circumstances, it just wants
to stop border-jumpers from sneaking in? If so, then I would hope that
the deportations to come won't preclude those people applying to come
legally.
--
Rhino
shawn
2024-11-14 13:54:36 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 06:40:29 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
I cannot IMAGINE the courts upholding a decision to deport actual
citizens of the United States, even with a majority of conservative
judges and the Republicans in control of the House, Senate and the
Executive Branch unless perhaps an amendment had changed the
Constitution to allow deportation of citizens.
Surely the new "border czar" will, at most, put people who are citizens
in the difficult position of having their families split or leaving
VOLUNTARILY to keep the family together.
Has anyone heard if people that will be deported under this
administration will be allowed to apply to enter the country legally
after they've returned to their home countries (or perhaps a third
country) or will these deportees be forbidden to even apply for normal
immigration ever again? (I'm assuming they can't be banned from applying
for refugee status.)
LOL. Given that no one knows just what the new administration will do
with regards to deportation asking if people will be able to reapply
to enter the country legally seems a bit much. No one knows what the
new administration will do including the people in the new
administration. I think under current rules if someone is here
illegally and is deported that they can't reapply for to enter the
country legally, but what does that mean for someone that is here
legally under current rules but is deported under the new
administration's rules?
Post by Rhino
Am I correct in thinking that American popular sentiment still supports
LEGAL immigration, even under the current circumstances, it just wants
to stop border-jumpers from sneaking in? If so, then I would hope that
the deportations to come won't preclude those people applying to come
legally.
Popular sentiment is what you state. That said who knows what the new
administration will do as at times I've heard Trump and his people
suggest the Haitians who are here legally under asylum rules should be
sent back to Haiti. Whether they will actually attempt such a thing
remains to be seen.
BTR1701
2024-11-14 18:10:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 06:40:29 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
I cannot IMAGINE the courts upholding a decision to deport actual
citizens of the United States, even with a majority of conservative
judges and the Republicans in control of the House, Senate and the
Executive Branch unless perhaps an amendment had changed the
Constitution to allow deportation of citizens.
Surely the new "border czar" will, at most, put people who are citizens
in the difficult position of having their families split or leaving
VOLUNTARILY to keep the family together.
Has anyone heard if people that will be deported under this
administration will be allowed to apply to enter the country legally
after they've returned to their home countries (or perhaps a third
country) or will these deportees be forbidden to even apply for normal
immigration ever again? (I'm assuming they can't be banned from applying
for refugee status.)
LOL. Given that no one knows just what the new administration will do
with regards to deportation asking if people will be able to reapply
to enter the country legally seems a bit much. No one knows what the
new administration will do including the people in the new
administration. I think under current rules if someone is here
illegally and is deported that they can't reapply for to enter the
country legally, but what does that mean for someone that is here
legally under current rules but is deported under the new
administration's rules?
Post by Rhino
Am I correct in thinking that American popular sentiment still supports
LEGAL immigration, even under the current circumstances, it just wants
to stop border-jumpers from sneaking in? If so, then I would hope that
the deportations to come won't preclude those people applying to come
legally.
Popular sentiment is what you state. That said who knows what the new
administration will do as at times I've heard Trump and his people
suggest the Haitians who are here legally under asylum rules should be
sent back to Haiti.
They aren't here legally under "asylum rules". They're here under rules
completely made-up by the Biden administration where they're allowed in via
executive order even though they meet none of the requirement for entry under
current law. That way they wouldn't technically be "illegal aliens" and the
administration could take a victory lap that illegal border crossing numbers
had dropped.
The Horny Goat
2024-11-14 18:49:09 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 08:54:36 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
LOL. Given that no one knows just what the new administration will do
with regards to deportation asking if people will be able to reapply
to enter the country legally seems a bit much. No one knows what the
new administration will do including the people in the new
administration. I think under current rules if someone is here
illegally and is deported that they can't reapply for to enter the
country legally, but what does that mean for someone that is here
legally under current rules but is deported under the new
administration's rules?
Surely trying to deny the latter class would be an example of an ex
post facto law which is strictly forbidden in every democracy I know
of
Adam H. Kerman
2024-11-14 15:52:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
I cannot IMAGINE the courts upholding a decision to deport actual
citizens of the United States, even with a majority of conservative
judges and the Republicans in control of the House, Senate and the
Executive Branch unless perhaps an amendment had changed the
Constitution to allow deportation of citizens.
Immigration cases aren't heard in courts established by Congress under
Article III of the Constitution. Instead, deportation orders are heard
by administrative law judges. These cases are incredibly backed up and
were already a huge mess under Obama. Trump made everything worse, then
Biden added all those asylum claims that have yet to be adjudicated.

There's no justice and the individual doesn't have rights accorded those
accused of crimes or at trial. So, yes, if the government attempts to do
what Tom Homan appears to want to do, it's conceivable that American
citizens, those who have legally immigrated, and those legally present
in the United States like asylum seekers could get swept up in Trump's
zeal to perform mass deportations because it's so difficult for an
individual to assert limited rights in these situations.
Post by Rhino
Surely the new "border czar" will, at most, put people who are citizens
in the difficult position of having their families split or leaving
VOLUNTARILY to keep the family together.
I have no idea. I'd like there to be some semblance of prioritization to
concentrate on deporting those convicted of felonies, ignoring those who
aren't criminals (except for violating immigration law who aren't human
traffickers).
Post by Rhino
Has anyone heard if people that will be deported under this
administration will be allowed to apply to enter the country legally
after they've returned to their home countries (or perhaps a third
country) or will these deportees be forbidden to even apply for normal
immigration ever again? (I'm assuming they can't be banned from applying
for refugee status.)
Am I correct in thinking that American popular sentiment still supports
LEGAL immigration, even under the current circumstances, it just wants
to stop border-jumpers from sneaking in? If so, then I would hope that
the deportations to come won't preclude those people applying to come
legally.
I doubt the average American has any idea what the hell is in
immigration and naturalization law. I don't.
Rhino
2024-11-14 17:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
I cannot IMAGINE the courts upholding a decision to deport actual
citizens of the United States, even with a majority of conservative
judges and the Republicans in control of the House, Senate and the
Executive Branch unless perhaps an amendment had changed the
Constitution to allow deportation of citizens.
Immigration cases aren't heard in courts established by Congress under
Article III of the Constitution. Instead, deportation orders are heard
by administrative law judges. These cases are incredibly backed up and
were already a huge mess under Obama. Trump made everything worse, then
Biden added all those asylum claims that have yet to be adjudicated.
There's no justice and the individual doesn't have rights accorded those
accused of crimes or at trial. So, yes, if the government attempts to do
what Tom Homan appears to want to do, it's conceivable that American
citizens, those who have legally immigrated, and those legally present
in the United States like asylum seekers could get swept up in Trump's
zeal to perform mass deportations because it's so difficult for an
individual to assert limited rights in these situations.
Surely there will be SOME opportunity to show SOMEONE the paperwork that
says they are a citizen or Green Card holder, even if some are
mistakenly detained by ICE agents??
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Surely the new "border czar" will, at most, put people who are citizens
in the difficult position of having their families split or leaving
VOLUNTARILY to keep the family together.
I have no idea. I'd like there to be some semblance of prioritization to
concentrate on deporting those convicted of felonies, ignoring those who
aren't criminals (except for violating immigration law who aren't human
traffickers).
I've already heard claims that this will be the priority but I'm not
sure if that is just the intention right now but that it will be
"simplified" so that anyone who can't prove citizenship or Green Card
status is set for deportation.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Has anyone heard if people that will be deported under this
administration will be allowed to apply to enter the country legally
after they've returned to their home countries (or perhaps a third
country) or will these deportees be forbidden to even apply for normal
immigration ever again? (I'm assuming they can't be banned from applying
for refugee status.)
Am I correct in thinking that American popular sentiment still supports
LEGAL immigration, even under the current circumstances, it just wants
to stop border-jumpers from sneaking in? If so, then I would hope that
the deportations to come won't preclude those people applying to come
legally.
I doubt the average American has any idea what the hell is in
immigration and naturalization law. I don't.
I'm not talking about the law; I'm talking about popular sentiment. I've
heard statements from various commentators that they in particular and
the American people in general still welcome immigration as long as it
is legal. But maybe people actually are so sick of all the invaders that
they just want to kick them out and lock the door to all immigrants at
least for a while until things settle.
--
Rhino
shawn
2024-11-14 17:37:28 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 12:28:38 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
I cannot IMAGINE the courts upholding a decision to deport actual
citizens of the United States, even with a majority of conservative
judges and the Republicans in control of the House, Senate and the
Executive Branch unless perhaps an amendment had changed the
Constitution to allow deportation of citizens.
Immigration cases aren't heard in courts established by Congress under
Article III of the Constitution. Instead, deportation orders are heard
by administrative law judges. These cases are incredibly backed up and
were already a huge mess under Obama. Trump made everything worse, then
Biden added all those asylum claims that have yet to be adjudicated.
There's no justice and the individual doesn't have rights accorded those
accused of crimes or at trial. So, yes, if the government attempts to do
what Tom Homan appears to want to do, it's conceivable that American
citizens, those who have legally immigrated, and those legally present
in the United States like asylum seekers could get swept up in Trump's
zeal to perform mass deportations because it's so difficult for an
individual to assert limited rights in these situations.
Surely there will be SOME opportunity to show SOMEONE the paperwork that
says they are a citizen or Green Card holder, even if some are
mistakenly detained by ICE agents??
Who knew that BORN IN EAST L.A. could become reality?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092690/reference/
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Surely the new "border czar" will, at most, put people who are citizens
in the difficult position of having their families split or leaving
VOLUNTARILY to keep the family together.
I have no idea. I'd like there to be some semblance of prioritization to
concentrate on deporting those convicted of felonies, ignoring those who
aren't criminals (except for violating immigration law who aren't human
traffickers).
I've already heard claims that this will be the priority but I'm not
sure if that is just the intention right now but that it will be
"simplified" so that anyone who can't prove citizenship or Green Card
status is set for deportation.
I've heard the same claims that they will prioritize criminals for
deportation but again we won't know what they are actually going to do
until Trump takes power and puts his people in place.
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Has anyone heard if people that will be deported under this
administration will be allowed to apply to enter the country legally
after they've returned to their home countries (or perhaps a third
country) or will these deportees be forbidden to even apply for normal
immigration ever again? (I'm assuming they can't be banned from applying
for refugee status.)
Am I correct in thinking that American popular sentiment still supports
LEGAL immigration, even under the current circumstances, it just wants
to stop border-jumpers from sneaking in? If so, then I would hope that
the deportations to come won't preclude those people applying to come
legally.
I doubt the average American has any idea what the hell is in
immigration and naturalization law. I don't.
I'm not talking about the law; I'm talking about popular sentiment. I've
heard statements from various commentators that they in particular and
the American people in general still welcome immigration as long as it
is legal. But maybe people actually are so sick of all the invaders that
they just want to kick them out and lock the door to all immigrants at
least for a while until things settle.
Adam H. Kerman
2024-11-14 17:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
I cannot IMAGINE the courts upholding a decision to deport actual
citizens of the United States, even with a majority of conservative
judges and the Republicans in control of the House, Senate and the
Executive Branch unless perhaps an amendment had changed the
Constitution to allow deportation of citizens.
Immigration cases aren't heard in courts established by Congress under
Article III of the Constitution. Instead, deportation orders are heard
by administrative law judges. These cases are incredibly backed up and
were already a huge mess under Obama. Trump made everything worse, then
Biden added all those asylum claims that have yet to be adjudicated.
There's no justice and the individual doesn't have rights accorded those
accused of crimes or at trial. So, yes, if the government attempts to do
what Tom Homan appears to want to do, it's conceivable that American
citizens, those who have legally immigrated, and those legally present
in the United States like asylum seekers could get swept up in Trump's
zeal to perform mass deportations because it's so difficult for an
individual to assert limited rights in these situations.
Surely there will be SOME opportunity to show SOMEONE the paperwork that
says they are a citizen or Green Card holder, even if some are
mistakenly detained by ICE agents??
People have been deported in error. It's America. We aren't required to
carry our papers with us.
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
. . .
Rhino
2024-11-14 20:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
I cannot IMAGINE the courts upholding a decision to deport actual
citizens of the United States, even with a majority of conservative
judges and the Republicans in control of the House, Senate and the
Executive Branch unless perhaps an amendment had changed the
Constitution to allow deportation of citizens.
Immigration cases aren't heard in courts established by Congress under
Article III of the Constitution. Instead, deportation orders are heard
by administrative law judges. These cases are incredibly backed up and
were already a huge mess under Obama. Trump made everything worse, then
Biden added all those asylum claims that have yet to be adjudicated.
There's no justice and the individual doesn't have rights accorded those
accused of crimes or at trial. So, yes, if the government attempts to do
what Tom Homan appears to want to do, it's conceivable that American
citizens, those who have legally immigrated, and those legally present
in the United States like asylum seekers could get swept up in Trump's
zeal to perform mass deportations because it's so difficult for an
individual to assert limited rights in these situations.
Surely there will be SOME opportunity to show SOMEONE the paperwork that
says they are a citizen or Green Card holder, even if some are
mistakenly detained by ICE agents??
People have been deported in error. It's America. We aren't required to
carry our papers with us.
Yes of course. I just meant that there would (hopefully) be *some*
opportunity for people to prove they were in the country legally and
that ICE wouldn't just round up and deport everyone that spoke with a
foreign accent or looked non-white. That opportunity might not be truly
fair, which of course is wrong, but it would be *something* that might
be improved upon if challenged legally. (Hopefully though, it wouldn't
be stretched to absurd extents. I still remember a documentary on
immigration to Canada I saw 20-odd years ago where various
self-proclaimed refugees swore that they were at risk of being murdered
if they returned to their countries. Each of them was denied refugee
status at their initial hearing but allowed to appeal: there were
NINETEEN levels of appeal!!! Each of them was eventually allowed to have
refugee status at one or another levels of their appeal. All of them
admitted to the documentary crew (on camera) that their claims were
spurious and that they were in no danger if returned to their home
countries. To add insult to injury, the ethnic Russian woman from
Kazakhstan mocked the whole immigration system saying that the Canadian
system was idiotic.)
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2024-11-14 18:47:49 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 06:40:29 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Am I correct in thinking that American popular sentiment still supports
LEGAL immigration, even under the current circumstances, it just wants
to stop border-jumpers from sneaking in? If so, then I would hope that
the deportations to come won't preclude those people applying to come
legally.
My impression is yes and even more strongly yes in Canada though the
overall opinion seems to be that the admission rate is at minimum
twice as high as it should be.

I see no good reason why someone who has been deported for illegal
entry should subsequently be eligible for the legal route - there are
more people who want to come than can and the priority has to be those
who are willing to play by the rules, not those who have a track
record of flouting the rules.

After all - who determines the rules? Citizens or foreigners whose
only qualification is that they want to come?
Rhino
2024-11-14 20:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 06:40:29 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Am I correct in thinking that American popular sentiment still supports
LEGAL immigration, even under the current circumstances, it just wants
to stop border-jumpers from sneaking in? If so, then I would hope that
the deportations to come won't preclude those people applying to come
legally.
My impression is yes and even more strongly yes in Canada though the
overall opinion seems to be that the admission rate is at minimum
twice as high as it should be.
I see no good reason why someone who has been deported for illegal
entry should subsequently be eligible for the legal route - there are
more people who want to come than can and the priority has to be those
who are willing to play by the rules, not those who have a track
record of flouting the rules.
After all - who determines the rules? Citizens or foreigners whose
only qualification is that they want to come?
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm only trying to gauge American public
opinion by asking some Americans what their sense is of the general
sentiment towards immigration in their country right now.
--
Rhino
Dimensional Traveler
2024-11-15 02:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 06:40:29 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Am I correct in thinking that American popular sentiment still supports
LEGAL immigration, even under the current circumstances, it just wants
to stop border-jumpers from sneaking in? If so, then I would hope that
the deportations to come won't preclude those people applying to come
legally.
My impression is yes and even more strongly yes in Canada though the
overall opinion seems to be that the admission rate is at minimum
twice as high as it should be.
Multiple polls have shown very strong support for legal immigration.
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
The Horny Goat
2024-11-18 06:37:13 UTC
Permalink
rOn Thu, 14 Nov 2024 18:35:09 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Am I correct in thinking that American popular sentiment still supports
LEGAL immigration, even under the current circumstances, it just wants
to stop border-jumpers from sneaking in? If so, then I would hope that
the deportations to come won't preclude those people applying to come
legally.
My impression is yes and even more strongly yes in Canada though the
overall opinion seems to be that the admission rate is at minimum
twice as high as it should be.
Multiple polls have shown very strong support for legal immigration.
I agree - and my whole point was that when pollsters asked respondents
what an appropriate level of immigration might be the usual response
was about 1/3 to 1/2 the current rate with immediate deportation for
'illegals'. (This was in Canada so depending on where you are "your
mileage might vary")

There were 2 or 3 regions where there was almost zero tolerance for
immigrants legal or otherwise but these areas mapped to those which
have been favorite crossing sites for illegals, not cross-country
wide.
BTR1701
2024-11-14 18:06:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
No, the citizen children wouldn't technically be deported in a legal sense.

What he means is that if mom and/or dad have to go back to the home country,
they can take their kids with them. They don't *have* to leave them behind.
When they turn 18, they can come back to the U.S. if they want to since
they're citizens.

When I was a kid, my mom and dad dragged me and my siblings all over the world
for my dad's job. We didn't have a choice because we were the kids and they
were the parents. We went where they told us to go.

Illegals who are being deported can do the same thing.
Rhino
2024-11-14 20:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
No, the citizen children wouldn't technically be deported in a legal sense.
What he means is that if mom and/or dad have to go back to the home country,
they can take their kids with them. They don't *have* to leave them behind.
When they turn 18, they can come back to the U.S. if they want to since
they're citizens.
When I was a kid, my mom and dad dragged me and my siblings all over the world
for my dad's job. We didn't have a choice because we were the kids and they
were the parents. We went where they told us to go.
Illegals who are being deported can do the same thing.
What would happen to American-born children left behind by non-legal
parents who got deported? I'm speaking of minors; obviously adults are
on their own unless perhaps they are severely disabled and not able to
fend for themselves.

I would imagine placing them with relatives in America would be the
ideal outcome in most cases but people without relatives (or those with
disreputable relatives) then go into the foster care system? That would
seem a very bleak prospect indeed if the horror stories about foster
care are true. Then again, going back home to some cess-pit third world
drug cartel dominated country might be even worse....
--
Rhino
Ubiquitous
2024-11-16 09:30:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Adam H. Kerman
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
No, the citizen children wouldn't technically be deported in a legal sense.
What he means is that if mom and/or dad have to go back to the home
country, they can take their kids with them. They don't *have* to leave
them behind. When they turn 18, they can come back to the U.S. if they
want to since they're citizens.
When I was a kid, my mom and dad dragged me and my siblings all over the
world for my dad's job. We didn't have a choice because we were the kids
and they were the parents. We went where they told us to go.
Illegals who are being deported can do the same thing.
What would happen to American-born children left behind by non-legal
parents who got deported? I'm speaking of minors; obviously adults are
on their own unless perhaps they are severely disabled and not able to
fend for themselves.
For starters, they're not really citizens, and even if they were, they can
return to America when they grow up.
--
Not a joke! Don't jump!
The Horny Goat
2024-11-18 16:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Rhino
What would happen to American-born children left behind by non-legal
parents who got deported? I'm speaking of minors; obviously adults are
on their own unless perhaps they are severely disabled and not able to
fend for themselves.
For starters, they're not really citizens, and even if they were, they can
return to America when they grow up.
Actually they are.

Within the last 10 years Canada actually gave citizenship for a child
born at 35000 feet in a flight from Europe to America that never
touched down in Canada but was overflying at the time. Apparently the
pilot had to give a sworn affidavit certifying where he was at the
exact moment of birth.

(At least it's better than somebody dying on an aircraft which I had
happen to somebody in the row in front of me about 1/2 hour before
landing on a Hong Kong - Vancouver flight. 2 police officers came on
board with the ambulence crew and no one was allowed to disembark
until they were off the plane. I remember seeing a blanket covered
gurney when I was going up the ramp to the terminal. I also once sat
directly behind an astronaut on a flight - I asked the steward if the
fellow directly in front of me was who I thought he was and was told
not to bother him. I told her I had no intention of doing anything of
the sort so she told me he was on his way to drop the opening puck in
the NHL All-Star game in Edmonton. Since the flight was going Toronto
- Edmonton - Los Angeles (my destination) I myob'd and had a good
flight)
Ubiquitous
2024-11-18 19:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Rhino
What would happen to American-born children left behind by non-legal
parents who got deported? I'm speaking of minors; obviously adults are
on their own unless perhaps they are severely disabled and not able to
fend for themselves.
For starters, they're not really citizens, and even if they were, they can
return to America when they grow up.
Actually they are.
I'd have to find it, but someone born in America of non-citizens doesn't
automagically become a citizen. That law/rule was origianlly meant for
ex-slaves after the War Between the States.

--
Not a joke! Don't jump!
BTR1701
2024-11-18 19:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Rhino
What would happen to American-born children left behind by non-legal
parents who got deported? I'm speaking of minors; obviously adults are
on their own unless perhaps they are severely disabled and not able to
fend for themselves.
For starters, they're not really citizens, and even if they were, they can
return to America when they grow up.
Actually they are.
I'd have to find it, but someone born in America of non-citizens doesn't
automagically become a citizen. That law/rule was origianlly meant for
ex-slaves after the War Between the States.
There's actually significant SCOTUS precedent for the idea that the 14th
Amendment's guarantee of birthright citizenship does not apply to illegals.

Even if one believes that United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)
was rightly decided, thereby creating a definitive floor for citizenship
within the Constitution, outside Congress' regulatory power, for kids born to
all immigrants, there is no way that can apply to people who come here without
the legal consent of the nation.

It's absurd to assert that people who are supposed to be off our soil can,
strictly by trespassing on it, achieve the ultimate benefit of citizenship for
their kids.

The 14th Amendment stipulates two requirements for birthright citizenship:
that the individual be born "in the United States and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof". Let's put aside the debate over what "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" means. Nobody can unilaterally assert jurisdiction
against the collective will of the nation. But even if the 14th Amendment
didn't contain the second condition and only stipulated that the child must be
"born in the United States", it is beyond settled law that if you are here
without consent, it is quite literally as if you are not present in this
country. This concept should not only shut down the phony birthright
citizenship debate once and for all, but end this notion that illegals can
come here and demand other benefits or standing in court for specific status
against the will of the political branches of government simply because they
successfully landed on our soil.

No foreigner or foreign entity can control the destiny of our nation and force
upon us prospectively an outcome for citizenship, judicial standing, or any
other benefit against the will of the president or Congress. It's obvious that
a country can never be forced to issue citizenship against its will, for if
that were the case, it would cease to be a sovereign country "free from
external control", as the term is defined by Webster's dictionary.

Nobody can dispute that a president has the power to keep out anyone seeking
entry for any reason. As Justice Thomas wrote in his concurrence in Trump v.
Hawaii, "Section 1182(f) does not set forth any judicially enforceable limits
that constrain the president. Nor could it, since the president has inherent
authority to exclude aliens from the country."

Yet I've been asked what happens if, after we close the points of entry, a
caravan sneaks onto our soil between the points of entry. The answer is
simple, because nothing trumps sovereignty. Therefore, for anyone who breaks
into our country without consent or overstays the terms of his or her entry,
it's as if they are physically not present on our soil. Constitutional rights
on our soil, much less the ultimate prize of citizenship, only apply if you
come here with consent. That is deeply rooted in social compact theory and
settled law. As the court said long ago in United States v. Ju Toy (1905), "a
person who comes to the country illegally is to be regarded as if he had
stopped at the limit of its jurisdiction, although physically he may be within
its boundaries".

Already as far back as the 1950s, the Supreme Court had already said, "For
over a half century this Court has held that the detention of an alien in
custody pending determination of his admissibility does not legally constitute
an entry though the alien is physically within the United States." [Leng May
Ma v. Barber (1958)]

This is why the court said in Turner v. Williams (1904) that an inadmissible
alien does not have 1st Amendment rights because "[h]e does not become one of
the people to whom these things are secured by our Constitution by an attempt
to enter forbidden by law."

In the notorious Zadvydas v. Davis case (2001), the court reiterated that any
alien "paroled into the United States pending admissibility" without having
"gained [a] foothold" has "not effected an entry".

The most important case that sheds light on this debate is Kaplan v. Tod
(1925), when the court denied citizenship and relief from deportation to the
daughter of a naturalized citizen who emigrated from Russia.

On July 20, 1914, the Kaplan family came to Ellis Island to
reunite with the father of the family, who had been working
in the country for a few years. The 13-year-old daughter was
deemed inadmissible for being "feeble minded", but because
of the outbreak of World War I, her deportation was delayed.
She was handed over to the custody of the Hebrew Aid Society,
which had her live together with her father until she was
ordered deported in 1923.

In the meantime, the father had become a citizen three years
earlier, and asserted that because his daughter was under 21
at the time of his naturalization and was living in the United
States, she should be automatically granted citizenship
alongside him, pursuant to long-standing law. But in a
unanimous and terse decision, the Court swatted down the
petition:

"Naturalization of parents affects minor children only
if dwelling in the United States. The appellant could
not lawfully have landed in the United States in view
of the express prohibition of the Act of 1910 just
referred to, and until she legally landed could not
have dwelt within the United States."

The Court backhandedly rejected the notion that she "dwelt within the United
States" even though she physically lived with her father for nine years on
American soil, partly with temporary permission from the government. That is
because "she was still in theory of law at the boundary line and had gained no
legal foothold in the United States" and had never "been dwelling in the
United States within the meaning of the Act". Now stop for a moment and
compare the language of the naturalization statute for those immigrant
children seeking naturalization together with their parents to the wording of
the 14th Amendment governing those born here.

The 14th Amendment requires that the child be born here and "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof". It is indisputable that even according to those
opinions in which jurisdiction means territorial jurisdiction and not
political jurisdiction (absurdly rendering the phrase superfluous), the
language of "subject to the jurisdiction" is certainly more restrictive than
the purely geographical and literal phrase "dwelling in the United States".
After all, everyone concedes that Indian tribes and children born to foreign
diplomats were excluded by this phrase, even though they are physically born
on our soil.

Yet, the Court ruled in 1925, based on uncontested precedent, that those
living here unlawfully don't even satisfy the meaning and intent of "dwelling
in the United States"-- even in a case where they were granted temporary
permission to live here on humanitarian grounds. It is therefore simply
preposterous to assert that those who willfully violated our laws and snuck
into the country without permission can secure jurisdiction for their children
against the consent of the nation. As the Left would say, it's "settled law"
that illegal immigrants are considered "at the boundary line and have gained
no legal foothold in the United States", irrespective of where they physically
reside now.

The reality is that there was never a formal decision, much less a piece of
legislation or a court case, mandating automatic citizenship for people who
break into our country. Wong Kim Ark was about those invited in on immigrant
visas. Justice Horace Gray, the author of Wong, referred to "domiciled"
immigrants on twelve occasions in the case. Those promoting citizenship for
illegals conveniently ignore his opinion six years earlier in Nishimura Ekiu
v. United States, 142 U.S. 651 (1892), which clearly held that an alien not
legally domiciled in this country is legally as if he is standing outside our
soil as it relates to even due process rights, much less the right to assert
jurisdiction on behalf of his child.

Bottom line, it would not be that radical of an interpretation for the Court
to rule that the 14th Amendment's birthright citizenship clause does not apply
to illegals. There seems to be substantial SCOTUS precedent for that
position.
Adam H. Kerman
2024-11-18 23:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
. . .
There's actually significant SCOTUS precedent for the idea that the 14th
Amendment's guarantee of birthright citizenship does not apply to illegals.
Even if one believes that United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)
was rightly decided,
Question

Is a child who was born in the United States to Chinese-citizen
parents who are lawful permanent residents of the United States
a U.S. citizen under the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth
Amendment?

Conclusion

Because Wong was born in the United States and his parents were not
"employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor
of China," the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment
automatically makes him a U.S. citizen. Justice Horace Gray
authored the opinion on behalf of a 6-2 majority, in which the
Court established the parameters of the concept known as jus
soli--the citizenship of children born in the United States
to non-citizens. Justice Joseph McKenna took no part in the
consideration or decision of the case.
Post by BTR1701
thereby creating a definitive floor for citizenship within the
Constitution, outside Congress' regulatory power, for kids born to
all immigrants,
You misstated the opinion. It's "born in the United States to
non-citizens", not immigrants. Not every foreign national lawfully or
unlawfully present in the United States has immigrated. Anyone born
in the United states of any foreign national at all, an immigrant, an
illegal alien regardless of intent to immigrate, an intinerant worker
lawfully present to perform farm labor, or a traveller is a natural born
citizen. The only people it does not apply to are those born of diplomats
or others in the foreign service or born of those in some sort of official
civilian or military delegation on United States soil.

The children of Philip and Elizabeth were Americans. It was a plot
point!
Post by BTR1701
there is no way that can apply to people who come here without
the legal consent of the nation.
Huh? THat's not what the Constitution says.
Post by BTR1701
It's absurd to assert that people who are supposed to be off our soil can,
strictly by trespassing on it, achieve the ultimate benefit of citizenship for
their kids.
In immigration law, it's unlawful presense. Piracy isn't copyright
law violation.
Post by BTR1701
that the individual be born "in the United States and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof". Let's put aside the debate over what "subject to the
jurisdiction thereof" means.
It's in the conclusion of the opinion. "Subject to" is every
foreign national who is not part of a diplomatic mission or some
official civilian or military delegation or some other official
representative of a foreign state. If Queen Victoria had given birth to
one of her many children whilst on foreign soil, they'd still be UK
subjects as she's literally "the state".
Post by BTR1701
Nobody can unilaterally assert jurisdiction against the collective will
of the nation.
That's handwaiving and not the Constitution. As you tell moviePig
constantly, if you don't like the Constitution, then work to amend it.
Post by BTR1701
But even if the 14th Amendment didn't contain the second condition and
only stipulated that the child must be "born in the United States",
it is beyond settled law that if you are here without consent, it is
quite literally as if you are not present in this country.
Danny and Baez arrest a man for the rape and murder of the appealing
sympathetic college girl seen in the cold open. Erin refuses to indict
because he's illegally present in the United States.
Post by BTR1701
This concept should not only shut down the phony birthright citizenship
debate once and for all, but end this notion that illegals can come
here and demand other benefits or standing in court for specific status
against the will of the political branches of government simply because
they successfully landed on our soil.
You would screw with who has standing in court? That's nothing to do
with legal presence in the United States. If a tort is committed, an
illegal alien can absolutely sue for P.I.
Post by BTR1701
No foreigner or foreign entity can control the destiny of our nation
and force upon us prospectively an outcome for citizenship, judicial
standing, or any other benefit against the will of the president or
Congress. It's obvious that a country can never be forced to issue
citizenship against its will, for if that were the case, it would cease
to be a sovereign country "free from external control", as the term is
defined by Webster's dictionary.
All that is a given. It doesn't make the child of a foreign national not
part of an official foreign mission born on US soil not an American per
the Constitution.
Post by BTR1701
Nobody can dispute that a president has the power to keep out anyone
seeking entry for any reason. As Justice Thomas wrote in his concurrence
in Trump v. Hawaii, "Section 1182(f) does not set forth any judicially
enforceable limits that constrain the president. Nor could it, since
the president has inherent authority to exclude aliens from the country."
Yet I've been asked what happens if, after we close the points of entry,
a caravan sneaks onto our soil between the points of entry. The answer
is simple, because nothing trumps sovereignty. Therefore, for anyone
who breaks into our country without consent or overstays the terms of
his or her entry, it's as if they are physically not present on our
soil. Constitutional rights on our soil, much less the ultimate prize of
citizenship, only apply if you come here with consent. That is deeply
rooted in social compact theory and settled law. As the court said
long ago in United States v. Ju Toy (1905), "a person who comes to the
country illegally is to be regarded as if he had stopped at the limit
of its jurisdiction, although physically he may be within its boundaries".
An employer at a construction site remains subject to industrial hygiene
laws and has violated the law for unsafe working conditions for each
worker seriously injured, even the illegal aliens he hired. They are
certainly regarded as having been present at the job site.

An illegal alien may sign a contract in the United States and expect its
enforcement.
Post by BTR1701
Already as far back as the 1950s, the Supreme Court had already said,
"For over a half century this Court has held that the detention of an
alien in custody pending determination of his admissibility does not
legally constitute an entry though the alien is physically within the
United States." [Leng May Ma v. Barber (1958)]
He's present, the legality of which is at issue. There's no pretense.
Post by BTR1701
This is why the court said in Turner v. Williams (1904) that an
inadmissible alien does not have 1st Amendment rights because "[h]e
does not become one of the people to whom these things are secured by
our Constitution by an attempt to enter forbidden by law."
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/194/279/

Williams came to the United States as a labor organizer. He was expelled
as an anarchist. His right "peaceably to assemble" was denied. But lets
say he had time to arrange with a publisher to have his remarks printed
up and distributed. Even if he were truly an anarchist in the UK, the
United States Government couldn't prevent publication. He retains his
free press rights.
Post by BTR1701
In the notorious Zadvydas v. Davis case (2001), the court reiterated that any
alien "paroled into the United States pending admissibility" without having
"gained [a] foothold" has "not effected an entry".
The most important case that sheds light on this debate is Kaplan v. Tod
(1925), when the court denied citizenship and relief from deportation to the
daughter of a naturalized citizen who emigrated from Russia.
Ok. I read through that. The daughter wasn't a natural born citizen
under the Constitution.
Post by BTR1701
. . .
Bottom line, it would not be that radical of an interpretation for the
Court to rule that the 14th Amendment's birthright citizenship clause
does not apply to illegals. There seems to be substantial SCOTUS precedent
for that position.
That's anti-textualist. You're demanding judicial activism here.
The Horny Goat
2024-11-19 18:08:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Rhino
What would happen to American-born children left behind by non-legal
parents who got deported? I'm speaking of minors; obviously adults are
on their own unless perhaps they are severely disabled and not able to
fend for themselves.
For starters, they're not really citizens, and even if they were, they can
return to America when they grow up.
Actually they are.
I'd have to find it, but someone born in America of non-citizens doesn't
automagically become a citizen. That law/rule was origianlly meant for
ex-slaves after the War Between the States.
What are the criteria? I know my wife's cousin has 5 adult children
whose father is a now retired sugar buyer for Coca-Cola and was
transferred from Toronto to Atlanta. He and his wife are Canadians and
all but their eldest were born in Atlanta - and they're all dual
citizens except for the eldest who was born in Toronto.

Needless to say they are/were all in the United States legally.
Ubiquitous
2024-11-19 20:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Ubiquitous
Post by Rhino
What would happen to American-born children left behind by non-legal
parents who got deported? I'm speaking of minors; obviously adults are
on their own unless perhaps they are severely disabled and not able to
fend for themselves.
For starters, they're not really citizens, and even if they were, they can
return to America when they grow up.
Actually they are.
Nationally syndicated radio show host Mark Levin explained on
Tuesday why children born in the United States to illegal alien
parents do not have a constitutional right to U.S. citizenship.

“I had to watch on TV, while I was in California, some so-called
experts tell us--and former Bush appointees, and a former superior
court judge in New Jersey tell us--that the Constitution embraces
birthright citizenship, and thereÂ’s not a damn thing we can do about
it," said Levin. "Well that, of course, is completely false.”


https://www.mrctv.org/videos/levin-idea-birthright-citizenship-embraced-us-constitution-completely-false

Here is a transcript of what Mark Levin had to say:

“Birthright citizenship: I have discussed this a few times in my
radio career – I think 2009. Maybe it was 2010. I think once or
twice since then. And unfortunately, I had to watch on TV, while I
was in California, some so-called experts tell us – and former Bush
appointees, and a former superior court judge in New Jersey tell us
– that the Constitution embraces birthright citizenship, and there’s
not a damn thing we can do about it. Well that, of course, is
completely false.

“And I don’t know why people who call themselves Constitutionalists
swerve back and forth, lurched from the Constitution to Supreme
Court decisions, and back and forth. First, letÂ’s figure out what
the Constitution says.

“And I see our senior legal analyst friend – and he is a friend of
mine, Napolitano – is all over the place. And he’s wrong, as are
many other so-called experts.

“I’ve actually spent my life on the Constitution. I wasn’t a
superior court judge in New Jersey. I wasnÂ’t a professor for
doughnuts and coffee at Shmegegge University or what have you. And
this is one of the areas I have poured over, over the decades.

“And yet nobody did a better job at explaining this than Professor
Edward Erler, who IÂ’ve talked about over the years. And heÂ’s a
professor at California State University. He is also at The
Claremont Institute, a senior fellow there. But more than that, he
happens to be right. And he testified before a subcommittee of
Congress many years ago, almost 20 years ago. And he set forth the
case.

“Now, he’s not the only one: Professor Thomas West has; Lino Graglia
has, professor at University of Texas School of Law School. But even
more than them, the framers of the Constitution set forth the basic
law. And then we have, after the Civil War, three amendments to the
Constitution – the Thirteenth, Fourteenth and Fifteenth – called the
Civil War Amendments. And we know pretty much what occurred.

“Professor Erler was testifying. He said, ‘It’s my considered
opinion, Congress has the authority, under Section Five of the
Fourth Amendment, to define the jurisdiction of the United States
[of the Fourteenth Amendment, of course]. Indeed, it is my
contention that Congress has exercised that power on many occasions,
most recently in the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986,
and I would say they also exercised it with the Illegal Immigration
Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996.”

“He points out, ‘Senator Jacob Howard … .’ You are now going to
know more than anybody else, ladies and gentlemen. You know, one of
the things I find when I sign books, and itÂ’s good to do it because
I get to talk to so many of you, people say, ‘Mark, your show is
different because you really get into the substance.Â’ Now, we have
fun. DonÂ’t get me wrong. We do our thing too. But we do get into
the substance. It’s one thing to say, ‘Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Obviously the Constitution doesnÂ’t provide that.Â’ ThatÂ’s not enough.
ThatÂ’s not enough. So when youÂ’re in a debate format or a political
format or a classroom format or this format, you need to back it up,
and thatÂ’s what we do here. We back it up.

“Senator Jacob Howard, the author of the citizenship clause of the
Fourteenth Amendment – he spoke – he told us what he meant. He
defined who would fall within the ‘jurisdiction of the United
States.Â’ Ready?

“‘Every person born within the limits of the United States, and
subject to their jurisdiction, [meaning the states – their
jurisdiction] is, by virtue of natural law and national law, a
citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include
persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who
belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers
accredited to the government of the United States, but will include
every other class of persons. It settles the great question of
citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not
citizens of the United States. This has long been a great issue in
the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.Â’

“Mr. Call Screener, Mr. Producer, you understand that, right? Is it
not plain English? Is he not as clear as can be, that it does not
include aliens, it does not include foreigners, it does not include
families or with ambassadors or foreign ministers?

“So, the author of the citizenship clause intended to count
foreigners, aliens and those born to ambassadors, foreign ministers,
as outside the jurisdiction of the United States. ThatÂ’s Senator
Jacob Howard. He knew, as his reference to natural law indicates
that the republican basis for citizenship is consent – consent of
the country.

“You can’t self-immigrate. You can’t claim jurisdiction because you
happen to walk into the United States.

“Senator Lyman Trumbull, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee and a
powerful supporter of the Fourteenth Amendment, remarked on May 30,
1866, that the jurisdiction clause includes those ‘not owing
allegiance to anybody else Â… ItÂ’s only those persons who come
completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws,
that we think of making citizens; and there can be no objection to
the proposition that such persons should be citizens.Â’ Now this was
familiar language.

“The Civil Rights Act of 1866 defined citizens of the United States
as ‘all persons born in the United States and not subject to any
foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.’ ‘Not subject to any
foreign power.Â’

“It is universally agreed that the immediate impulse of the passage
of the Fourteenth Amendment was to constitutionalize
(constitutionalize) the Civil Rights Act of 1866. It was an attempt
to put the question of citizenship and matter of federal civil
rights beyond the reach of simple congressional majorities. Thus,
it was clear, the idea of allegiance, ‘not subject to any foreign
power,Â’ was central to understanding the jurisdiction clause of the
Fourteenth Amendment.”
--
Kavanaugh is a gang rapist.
OK, not a gang rapist, but a serial rapist.
Not a serial rapist, but a rapist.
OK, not a rapist, but a blackout drunk.
Not a blackout drunk, but an alcoholic.
Not an alcoholic, but he drinks beer.
OK, he just threw ice at someone once in the 1980's.
Adam H. Kerman
2024-11-15 02:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
No, the citizen children wouldn't technically be deported in a legal sense.
What he means is that if mom and/or dad have to go back to the home country,
they can take their kids with them. They don't *have* to leave them behind.
When they turn 18, they can come back to the U.S. if they want to since
they're citizens.
If you take your children with you, returning to the shithole country
from whence you came, isn't that child abuse?
Post by BTR1701
. . .
BTR1701
2024-11-15 02:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
No, the citizen children wouldn't technically be deported in a legal sense.
What he means is that if mom and/or dad have to go back to the home country,
they can take their kids with them. They don't *have* to leave them behind.
When they turn 18, they can come back to the U.S. if they want to since
they're citizens.
If you take your children with you, returning to the shithole country
from whence you came, isn't that child abuse?
Not any more than it's child abuse to drag them across the Sonoran desert with
rapist human traffickers leading the way.
moviePig
2024-11-15 03:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
No, the citizen children wouldn't technically be deported in a legal sense.
What he means is that if mom and/or dad have to go back to the home country,
they can take their kids with them. They don't *have* to leave them behind.
When they turn 18, they can come back to the U.S. if they want to since
they're citizens.
If you take your children with you, returning to the shithole country
from whence you came, isn't that child abuse?
Not any more than it's child abuse to drag them across the Sonoran desert with
rapist human traffickers leading the way.
...except that, should they survive the journey, the outcomes differ.
Ubiquitous
2024-11-16 09:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents. They aren't subject
to deportation. Other people claim that's actually wht he means.
No, the citizen children wouldn't technically be deported in a legal sense.
What he means is that if mom and/or dad have to go back to the home country,
they can take their kids with them. They don't *have* to leave them behind.
When they turn 18, they can come back to the U.S. if they want to since
they're citizens.
If you take your children with you, returning to the shithole country
from whence you came, isn't that child abuse?
Not any more than it's child abuse to drag them across the Sonoran desert with
rapist human traffickers leading the way.
...except that, should they survive the journey, the outcomes differ.
Umm, wow.
So you're OK with them getting raped and abused, as long as they survive?

[Kerman's incorrect formatting fixed.]
--
Democrats and the liberal media hate President Trump more than they
love this country.
Ubiquitous
2024-11-16 09:30:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4
"Families can be deported together."
Uh
That would include citizens and permanent residents.
TROLL-O-METER

5* 6* *7
4* *8
3* *9
2* *10
1* | *stuporous
0* -*- *catatonic
* |\ *comatose
* \ *clinical death
* \ *biological death
* _\/ *demonic apparition
* * *damned for all eternity
moviePig
2024-11-14 17:14:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Rhino
2024-11-14 17:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/
avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Apoplexy? Try sheer frustration at the insistence by Democrats that
letting in 10-20 million unvetted people wasn't a problem. Clearly a LOT
of people disagree and will welcome Homan's efforts to solve the problem
- at least initially. (Inevitably, some sad stories will become public
as these deportations kick in and, Americans being a good and decent
people, may find that they want to make some exceptions to what might
initially be a fairly hard line.)
--
Rhino
BTR1701
2024-11-14 18:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/
avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Apoplexy? Try sheer frustration at the insistence by Democrats that
letting in 10-20 million unvetted people wasn't a problem.
Apparently doing anything other than throwing open the metaphorical doors and
standing back while the entire Southern Hemisphere floods into the country is
"apoplexy" for the Pigs of the world.
Post by Rhino
Clearly a LOT
of people disagree and will welcome Homan's efforts to solve the problem
- at least initially. (Inevitably, some sad stories will become public
as these deportations kick in and, Americans being a good and decent
people, may find that they want to make some exceptions to what might
initially be a fairly hard line.)
I'm just happy to have a "border czar" (although I hate that term and really
wish we hadn't adopted the practice of using an honorific from Russia’s days
of dictatorial royalty to refer to our public officials) that doesn't dance in
the streets with open borders activists singing "Up, up, with education, down,
down with deportation!"
moviePig
2024-11-14 19:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/
avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Apoplexy? Try sheer frustration at the insistence by Democrats that
letting in 10-20 million unvetted people wasn't a problem.
Apparently doing anything other than throwing open the metaphorical doors and
standing back while the entire Southern Hemisphere floods into the country is
"apoplexy" for the Pigs of the world.
This Pig of the world has no idea what your Inquisitor General will
actually do, but is alarmed merely by his apparent state of mind.
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Clearly a LOT
of people disagree and will welcome Homan's efforts to solve the problem
- at least initially. (Inevitably, some sad stories will become public
as these deportations kick in and, Americans being a good and decent
people, may find that they want to make some exceptions to what might
initially be a fairly hard line.)
I'm just happy to have a "border czar" (although I hate that term and really
wish we hadn't adopted the practice of using an honorific from Russia’s days
of dictatorial royalty to refer to our public officials) that doesn't dance in
the streets with open borders activists singing "Up, up, with education, down,
down with deportation!"
They'll pick a title after they see the public's reaction to the policy.
Ubiquitous
2024-11-16 09:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Apoplexy? Try sheer frustration at the insistence by Democrats that
letting in 10-20 million unvetted people wasn't a problem.
Apparently doing anything other than throwing open the metaphorical doors
and standing back while the entire Southern Hemisphere floods into the
country is "apoplexy" for the Pigs of the world.
This Pig of the world has no idea what your Inquisitor General will
actually do, but is alarmed merely by his apparent state of mind.
Apoplexy noted.

--
Let's go Brandon!
Rhino
2024-11-14 20:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/
avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Apoplexy? Try sheer frustration at the insistence by Democrats that
letting in 10-20 million unvetted people wasn't a problem.
Apparently doing anything other than throwing open the metaphorical doors and
standing back while the entire Southern Hemisphere floods into the country is
"apoplexy" for the Pigs of the world.
Post by Rhino
Clearly a LOT
of people disagree and will welcome Homan's efforts to solve the problem
- at least initially. (Inevitably, some sad stories will become public
as these deportations kick in and, Americans being a good and decent
people, may find that they want to make some exceptions to what might
initially be a fairly hard line.)
I'm just happy to have a "border czar" (although I hate that term and really
wish we hadn't adopted the practice of using an honorific from Russia’s days
of dictatorial royalty to refer to our public officials) that doesn't dance in
the streets with open borders activists singing "Up, up, with education, down,
down with deportation!"
Especially given the state of "education" the last several years. I just
saw Megyn Kelly interview Bill Ackman and he revealed that one of the
things that really got his attention was when an anonymous survey at one
of the Ivy League universities - Harvard or Yale but I can't recall
which - had revealed that only 2% of all the professors admitted to
conservative leanings; all the rest were "progressives". And that was
during Trump's first administration. Things have only gotten worse since
then. No wonder the colleges and universities are full of this "woke",
pro-Hamas rot and those university presidents shit the bed so badly when
questioned in Congress earlier this year.
--
Rhino
shawn
2024-11-14 22:17:36 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 15:59:39 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/
avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Apoplexy? Try sheer frustration at the insistence by Democrats that
letting in 10-20 million unvetted people wasn't a problem.
Apparently doing anything other than throwing open the metaphorical doors and
standing back while the entire Southern Hemisphere floods into the country is
"apoplexy" for the Pigs of the world.
Post by Rhino
Clearly a LOT
of people disagree and will welcome Homan's efforts to solve the problem
- at least initially. (Inevitably, some sad stories will become public
as these deportations kick in and, Americans being a good and decent
people, may find that they want to make some exceptions to what might
initially be a fairly hard line.)
I'm just happy to have a "border czar" (although I hate that term and really
wish we hadn't adopted the practice of using an honorific from Russia’s days
of dictatorial royalty to refer to our public officials) that doesn't dance in
the streets with open borders activists singing "Up, up, with education, down,
down with deportation!"
Especially given the state of "education" the last several years. I just
saw Megyn Kelly interview Bill Ackman and he revealed that one of the
things that really got his attention was when an anonymous survey at one
of the Ivy League universities - Harvard or Yale but I can't recall
which - had revealed that only 2% of all the professors admitted to
conservative leanings; all the rest were "progressives". And that was
during Trump's first administration. Things have only gotten worse since
then. No wonder the colleges and universities are full of this "woke",
pro-Hamas rot and those university presidents shit the bed so badly when
questioned in Congress earlier this year.
I don't get that opinion. Why do you think progressives are pro-Hamas
and not just pro-Palestinian. I mean I certainly don't want the
Palestinian people to keep being bombed but I'm certainly not in favor
of Hamas being allowed to attack Israel without any consequences.

Ideally, in my opinion, Hamas would be gone and the Palestinian
people would be allowed to control their own fate but that doesn't
seem likely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Israel is just helping
to win more people over to Hamas by their killing of innocent
civilians in an attempt to wipe out Hamas leaders. Which just means
the fighting will likely keep going on and on and on.
BTR1701
2024-11-14 22:37:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 15:59:39 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/
avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Apoplexy? Try sheer frustration at the insistence by Democrats that
letting in 10-20 million unvetted people wasn't a problem.
Apparently doing anything other than throwing open the metaphorical doors and
standing back while the entire Southern Hemisphere floods into the country is
"apoplexy" for the Pigs of the world.
Post by Rhino
Clearly a LOT
of people disagree and will welcome Homan's efforts to solve the problem
- at least initially. (Inevitably, some sad stories will become public
as these deportations kick in and, Americans being a good and decent
people, may find that they want to make some exceptions to what might
initially be a fairly hard line.)
I'm just happy to have a "border czar" (although I hate that term and really
wish we hadn't adopted the practice of using an honorific from Russia’s days
of dictatorial royalty to refer to our public officials) that doesn't dance in
the streets with open borders activists singing "Up, up, with education, down,
down with deportation!"
Especially given the state of "education" the last several years. I just
saw Megyn Kelly interview Bill Ackman and he revealed that one of the
things that really got his attention was when an anonymous survey at one
of the Ivy League universities - Harvard or Yale but I can't recall
which - had revealed that only 2% of all the professors admitted to
conservative leanings; all the rest were "progressives". And that was
during Trump's first administration. Things have only gotten worse since
then. No wonder the colleges and universities are full of this "woke",
pro-Hamas rot and those university presidents shit the bed so badly when
questioned in Congress earlier this year.
I don't get that opinion. Why do you think progressives are pro-Hamas
and not just pro-Palestinian.
Because whenever they get together to protest, they hold up Hamas flags and
chant things like "from the river to the sea", which is an express call for
Jewish genocide.
shawn
2024-11-14 22:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by shawn
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 15:59:39 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/
avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Apoplexy? Try sheer frustration at the insistence by Democrats that
letting in 10-20 million unvetted people wasn't a problem.
Apparently doing anything other than throwing open the metaphorical doors and
standing back while the entire Southern Hemisphere floods into the country is
"apoplexy" for the Pigs of the world.
Post by Rhino
Clearly a LOT
of people disagree and will welcome Homan's efforts to solve the problem
- at least initially. (Inevitably, some sad stories will become public
as these deportations kick in and, Americans being a good and decent
people, may find that they want to make some exceptions to what might
initially be a fairly hard line.)
I'm just happy to have a "border czar" (although I hate that term and really
wish we hadn't adopted the practice of using an honorific from Russia’s days
of dictatorial royalty to refer to our public officials) that doesn't dance in
the streets with open borders activists singing "Up, up, with education, down,
down with deportation!"
Especially given the state of "education" the last several years. I just
saw Megyn Kelly interview Bill Ackman and he revealed that one of the
things that really got his attention was when an anonymous survey at one
of the Ivy League universities - Harvard or Yale but I can't recall
which - had revealed that only 2% of all the professors admitted to
conservative leanings; all the rest were "progressives". And that was
during Trump's first administration. Things have only gotten worse since
then. No wonder the colleges and universities are full of this "woke",
pro-Hamas rot and those university presidents shit the bed so badly when
questioned in Congress earlier this year.
I don't get that opinion. Why do you think progressives are pro-Hamas
and not just pro-Palestinian.
Because whenever they get together to protest, they hold up Hamas flags and
chant things like "from the river to the sea", which is an express call for
Jewish genocide.
Who is "They"? I'm sure there are people who call themselves
"progressive" who fully support Hamas but I've not seen evidence to
show me that's even a majority of people calling themselves
progressive. There's always going to be people in any group that take
on more extreme positions like being pro Hamas even when Hamas does
things like that October attack on Israeli citizens.
BTR1701
2024-11-15 02:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
Post by BTR1701
Post by shawn
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 15:59:39 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/
avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4?tag=12
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Apoplexy? Try sheer frustration at the insistence by Democrats that
letting in 10-20 million unvetted people wasn't a problem.
Apparently doing anything other than throwing open the metaphorical doors and
standing back while the entire Southern Hemisphere floods into the country is
"apoplexy" for the Pigs of the world.
Post by Rhino
Clearly a LOT
of people disagree and will welcome Homan's efforts to solve the problem
- at least initially. (Inevitably, some sad stories will become public
as these deportations kick in and, Americans being a good and decent
people, may find that they want to make some exceptions to what might
initially be a fairly hard line.)
I'm just happy to have a "border czar" (although I hate that term and really
wish we hadn't adopted the practice of using an honorific from Russia’s days
of dictatorial royalty to refer to our public officials) that doesn't dance in
the streets with open borders activists singing "Up, up, with education, down,
down with deportation!"
Especially given the state of "education" the last several years. I just
saw Megyn Kelly interview Bill Ackman and he revealed that one of the
things that really got his attention was when an anonymous survey at one
of the Ivy League universities - Harvard or Yale but I can't recall
which - had revealed that only 2% of all the professors admitted to
conservative leanings; all the rest were "progressives". And that was
during Trump's first administration. Things have only gotten worse since
then. No wonder the colleges and universities are full of this "woke",
pro-Hamas rot and those university presidents shit the bed so badly when
questioned in Congress earlier this year.
I don't get that opinion. Why do you think progressives are pro-Hamas
and not just pro-Palestinian.
Because whenever they get together to protest, they hold up Hamas flags and
chant things like "from the river to the sea", which is an express call for
Jewish genocide.
Who is "They"?
Just look at any of those college protest encampments for your answer.
Post by shawn
I'm sure there are people who call themselves
"progressive" who fully support Hamas but I've not seen evidence to
show me that's even a majority of people calling themselves
progressive. There's always going to be people in any group that take
on more extreme positions like being pro Hamas even when Hamas does
things like that October attack on Israeli citizens.
The Horny Goat
2024-11-18 06:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Just look at any of those college protest encampments for your answer.
Are there any of those encampments still in operation?

My Alma Mater was "blessed" by one of them which was dismantled
shortly before convocation once it was discovered it blocked the main
route from the student union (where the grads received their
mortarboards and outfit) before marching to the auditorium where they
sang "Land of Hope + Glory" and got their diplomas.
Ubiquitous
2024-11-16 09:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
Post by BTR1701
Post by shawn
Post by Rhino
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Apoplexy? Try sheer frustration at the insistence by Democrats that
letting in 10-20 million unvetted people wasn't a problem.
Apparently doing anything other than throwing open the metaphorical doors
and standing back while the entire Southern Hemisphere floods into the
country is "apoplexy" for the Pigs of the world.
Post by Rhino
Clearly a LOT of people disagree and will welcome Homan's efforts to solve the
problem - at least initially. (Inevitably, some sad stories will become public
as these deportations kick in and, Americans being a good and decent
people, may find that they want to make some exceptions to what might
initially be a fairly hard line.)
I'm just happy to have a "border czar" (although I hate that term and
really wish we hadn't adopted the practice of using an honorific from
Russia's days of dictatorial royalty to refer to our public officials)
that doesn't dance in the streets with open borders activists singing
"Up, up, with education, down, down with deportation!"
Especially given the state of "education" the last several years. I just
saw Megyn Kelly interview Bill Ackman and he revealed that one of the
things that really got his attention was when an anonymous survey at one
of the Ivy League universities - Harvard or Yale but I can't recall
which - had revealed that only 2% of all the professors admitted to
conservative leanings; all the rest were "progressives". And that was
during Trump's first administration. Things have only gotten worse since
then. No wonder the colleges and universities are full of this "woke",
pro-Hamas rot and those university presidents shit the bed so badly when
questioned in Congress earlier this year.
Oh, it's been that way for decades! Ditto for journalists.
Post by shawn
Post by BTR1701
Post by shawn
I don't get that opinion. Why do you think progressives are pro-Hamas
and not just pro-Palestinian.
Because whenever they get together to protest, they hold up Hamas flags and
chant things like "from the river to the sea", which is an express call for
Jewish genocide.
Who is "They"?
Nonresponse noted. Get back to us when you have a real argument to make.

--
Don't jump!
The Horny Goat
2024-11-18 06:31:02 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 17:56:20 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Who is "They"? I'm sure there are people who call themselves
"progressive" who fully support Hamas but I've not seen evidence to
show me that's even a majority of people calling themselves
progressive. There's always going to be people in any group that take
on more extreme positions like being pro Hamas even when Hamas does
things like that October attack on Israeli citizens.
I'd be a lot more tolerant of HAMAS if they hadn't _started_ their war
with mass rapes and all sorts of female corpses naked from the waist
down with bloody genitals.

At this point I wouldn't be too upset seeing any Gazan caught with a
firearm being hung from the nearest lamp post.
The Horny Goat
2024-11-18 06:25:13 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 17:17:36 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Ideally, in my opinion, Hamas would be gone and the Palestinian
people would be allowed to control their own fate but that doesn't
seem likely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Israel is just helping
to win more people over to Hamas by their killing of innocent
civilians in an attempt to wipe out Hamas leaders. Which just means
the fighting will likely keep going on and on and on.
Given HAMAS routinely uses 'innocent civilians' as human shields if
the Israeli soldier spots the HAMAS guy with a weapon he's going to
shoot first and ask questions later.

At best, that's going to mean a wounded civilian - which is just going
to mean the HAMAS fighter is going to grab yetanother "shield" next
time he sees an Israeli.

While I agree with you on your point about winning more people over,
what's their option besides surrendering to HAMAS?
shawn
2024-11-18 09:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 17:17:36 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Ideally, in my opinion, Hamas would be gone and the Palestinian
people would be allowed to control their own fate but that doesn't
seem likely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Israel is just helping
to win more people over to Hamas by their killing of innocent
civilians in an attempt to wipe out Hamas leaders. Which just means
the fighting will likely keep going on and on and on.
Given HAMAS routinely uses 'innocent civilians' as human shields if
the Israeli soldier spots the HAMAS guy with a weapon he's going to
shoot first and ask questions later.
At best, that's going to mean a wounded civilian - which is just going
to mean the HAMAS fighter is going to grab yetanother "shield" next
time he sees an Israeli.
While I agree with you on your point about winning more people over,
what's their option besides surrendering to HAMAS?
I don't know that they have one. At least not a good one. With a few
million people to hide among even preventing Hamas from launching the
occasional rocket attack is going to be impossible.

Though I wonder if they treated the Gazan residents better if they
could have won over their support for Israel at getting rid of Hamas.
I'm not sure it could work now but at least making sure Gaza is
getting food/water/medical supplies would limit the # of people who
might support Hamas.
Dimensional Traveler
2024-11-18 14:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 17:17:36 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Ideally, in my opinion, Hamas would be gone and the Palestinian
people would be allowed to control their own fate but that doesn't
seem likely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Israel is just helping
to win more people over to Hamas by their killing of innocent
civilians in an attempt to wipe out Hamas leaders. Which just means
the fighting will likely keep going on and on and on.
Given HAMAS routinely uses 'innocent civilians' as human shields if
the Israeli soldier spots the HAMAS guy with a weapon he's going to
shoot first and ask questions later.
At best, that's going to mean a wounded civilian - which is just going
to mean the HAMAS fighter is going to grab yetanother "shield" next
time he sees an Israeli.
While I agree with you on your point about winning more people over,
what's their option besides surrendering to HAMAS?
I don't know that they have one. At least not a good one. With a few
million people to hide among even preventing Hamas from launching the
occasional rocket attack is going to be impossible.
Though I wonder if they treated the Gazan residents better if they
could have won over their support for Israel at getting rid of Hamas.
I'm not sure it could work now but at least making sure Gaza is
getting food/water/medical supplies would limit the # of people who
might support Hamas.
Hamas is the group that is "appropriating" the food/water/medicine sent
to Gaza.
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
shawn
2024-11-18 16:43:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 06:07:46 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by shawn
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 17:17:36 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Ideally, in my opinion, Hamas would be gone and the Palestinian
people would be allowed to control their own fate but that doesn't
seem likely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Israel is just helping
to win more people over to Hamas by their killing of innocent
civilians in an attempt to wipe out Hamas leaders. Which just means
the fighting will likely keep going on and on and on.
Given HAMAS routinely uses 'innocent civilians' as human shields if
the Israeli soldier spots the HAMAS guy with a weapon he's going to
shoot first and ask questions later.
At best, that's going to mean a wounded civilian - which is just going
to mean the HAMAS fighter is going to grab yetanother "shield" next
time he sees an Israeli.
While I agree with you on your point about winning more people over,
what's their option besides surrendering to HAMAS?
I don't know that they have one. At least not a good one. With a few
million people to hide among even preventing Hamas from launching the
occasional rocket attack is going to be impossible.
Though I wonder if they treated the Gazan residents better if they
could have won over their support for Israel at getting rid of Hamas.
I'm not sure it could work now but at least making sure Gaza is
getting food/water/medical supplies would limit the # of people who
might support Hamas.
Hamas is the group that is "appropriating" the food/water/medicine sent
to Gaza.
I know but Israel has also been limiting the support available. If
they didn't there would be more food/water/medicine coming in than
Hamas could take control of. There's no lack of supplies available if
only it were easy to get them into Gaza.
Ubiquitous
2024-11-18 19:23:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by shawn
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by shawn
Ideally, in my opinion, Hamas would be gone and the Palestinian
people would be allowed to control their own fate but that doesn't
seem likely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Israel is just helping
to win more people over to Hamas by their killing of innocent
civilians in an attempt to wipe out Hamas leaders. Which just means
the fighting will likely keep going on and on and on.
Given HAMAS routinely uses 'innocent civilians' as human shields if
the Israeli soldier spots the HAMAS guy with a weapon he's going to
shoot first and ask questions later.
At best, that's going to mean a wounded civilian - which is just going
to mean the HAMAS fighter is going to grab yetanother "shield" next
time he sees an Israeli.
While I agree with you on your point about winning more people over,
what's their option besides surrendering to HAMAS?
I don't know that they have one. At least not a good one. With a few
million people to hide among even preventing Hamas from launching the
occasional rocket attack is going to be impossible.
Though I wonder if they treated the Gazan residents better if they
could have won over their support for Israel at getting rid of Hamas.
I'm not sure it could work now but at least making sure Gaza is
getting food/water/medical supplies would limit the # of people who
might support Hamas.
Hamas is the group that is "appropriating" the food/water/medicine sent
to Gaza.
I know but Israel has also been limiting the support available.
TROLL-O-METER

5* 6* *7
4* *8
3* *9
2* *10
1* | *stuporous
0* -*- *catatonic
* |\ *comatose
* \ *clinical death
* \ *biological death
* _\/ *demonic apparition
* * *damned for all eternity
Adam H. Kerman
2024-11-18 19:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 06:07:46 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by shawn
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 17:17:36 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Ideally, in my opinion, Hamas would be gone and the Palestinian
people would be allowed to control their own fate but that doesn't
seem likely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Israel is just helping
to win more people over to Hamas by their killing of innocent
civilians in an attempt to wipe out Hamas leaders. Which just means
the fighting will likely keep going on and on and on.
Given HAMAS routinely uses 'innocent civilians' as human shields if
the Israeli soldier spots the HAMAS guy with a weapon he's going to
shoot first and ask questions later.
At best, that's going to mean a wounded civilian - which is just going
to mean the HAMAS fighter is going to grab yetanother "shield" next
time he sees an Israeli.
While I agree with you on your point about winning more people over,
what's their option besides surrendering to HAMAS?
I don't know that they have one. At least not a good one. With a few
million people to hide among even preventing Hamas from launching the
occasional rocket attack is going to be impossible.
Though I wonder if they treated the Gazan residents better if they
could have won over their support for Israel at getting rid of Hamas.
I'm not sure it could work now but at least making sure Gaza is
getting food/water/medical supplies would limit the # of people who
might support Hamas.
Hamas is the group that is "appropriating" the food/water/medicine sent
to Gaza.
I know but Israel has also been limiting the support available. If
they didn't there would be more food/water/medicine coming in than
Hamas could take control of. There's no lack of supplies available if
only it were easy to get them into Gaza.
Just this morning, the UN complained that the relief convoy was attacked
and the relief couldn't be distributed effectively.

But I'm sure you blame Israel.
Dimensional Traveler
2024-11-19 06:41:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 06:07:46 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by shawn
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 17:17:36 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Ideally, in my opinion, Hamas would be gone and the Palestinian
people would be allowed to control their own fate but that doesn't
seem likely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Israel is just helping
to win more people over to Hamas by their killing of innocent
civilians in an attempt to wipe out Hamas leaders. Which just means
the fighting will likely keep going on and on and on.
Given HAMAS routinely uses 'innocent civilians' as human shields if
the Israeli soldier spots the HAMAS guy with a weapon he's going to
shoot first and ask questions later.
At best, that's going to mean a wounded civilian - which is just going
to mean the HAMAS fighter is going to grab yetanother "shield" next
time he sees an Israeli.
While I agree with you on your point about winning more people over,
what's their option besides surrendering to HAMAS?
I don't know that they have one. At least not a good one. With a few
million people to hide among even preventing Hamas from launching the
occasional rocket attack is going to be impossible.
Though I wonder if they treated the Gazan residents better if they
could have won over their support for Israel at getting rid of Hamas.
I'm not sure it could work now but at least making sure Gaza is
getting food/water/medical supplies would limit the # of people who
might support Hamas.
Hamas is the group that is "appropriating" the food/water/medicine sent
to Gaza.
I know but Israel has also been limiting the support available. If
they didn't there would be more food/water/medicine coming in than
Hamas could take control of. There's no lack of supplies available if
only it were easy to get them into Gaza.
What makes you think Hamas wouldn't just destroy whatever supplies they
couldn't keep? They are LONG past the point of thinking "We must make
our fellow Palestinians miserable and desperate so they will hate the
Jews more and join us in killing them!"
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
shawn
2024-11-19 07:26:48 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 22:41:01 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by shawn
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 06:07:46 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by shawn
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 17:17:36 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Ideally, in my opinion, Hamas would be gone and the Palestinian
people would be allowed to control their own fate but that doesn't
seem likely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Israel is just helping
to win more people over to Hamas by their killing of innocent
civilians in an attempt to wipe out Hamas leaders. Which just means
the fighting will likely keep going on and on and on.
Given HAMAS routinely uses 'innocent civilians' as human shields if
the Israeli soldier spots the HAMAS guy with a weapon he's going to
shoot first and ask questions later.
At best, that's going to mean a wounded civilian - which is just going
to mean the HAMAS fighter is going to grab yetanother "shield" next
time he sees an Israeli.
While I agree with you on your point about winning more people over,
what's their option besides surrendering to HAMAS?
I don't know that they have one. At least not a good one. With a few
million people to hide among even preventing Hamas from launching the
occasional rocket attack is going to be impossible.
Though I wonder if they treated the Gazan residents better if they
could have won over their support for Israel at getting rid of Hamas.
I'm not sure it could work now but at least making sure Gaza is
getting food/water/medical supplies would limit the # of people who
might support Hamas.
Hamas is the group that is "appropriating" the food/water/medicine sent
to Gaza.
I know but Israel has also been limiting the support available. If
they didn't there would be more food/water/medicine coming in than
Hamas could take control of. There's no lack of supplies available if
only it were easy to get them into Gaza.
What makes you think Hamas wouldn't just destroy whatever supplies they
couldn't keep? They are LONG past the point of thinking "We must make
our fellow Palestinians miserable and desperate so they will hate the
Jews more and join us in killing them!"
Ideally that would result in the rest of Palestinians turning against
Hamas. That doesn't seem to be happening but if they know that Hamas
is fully responsible for them not getting the aid they need then they
should turn against Hamas. If the alternative is starving to death as
being mentioned over and over again you would think that would be
enough to force the Gazans to attack Hamas even if that means some die
as they were going to die anyway.

Do I expect it to happen? No, not given what we've seen happen so far
but it should be what happens.
Dimensional Traveler
2024-11-19 15:51:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 22:41:01 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by shawn
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 06:07:46 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by shawn
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 17:17:36 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Ideally, in my opinion, Hamas would be gone and the Palestinian
people would be allowed to control their own fate but that doesn't
seem likely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Israel is just helping
to win more people over to Hamas by their killing of innocent
civilians in an attempt to wipe out Hamas leaders. Which just means
the fighting will likely keep going on and on and on.
Given HAMAS routinely uses 'innocent civilians' as human shields if
the Israeli soldier spots the HAMAS guy with a weapon he's going to
shoot first and ask questions later.
At best, that's going to mean a wounded civilian - which is just going
to mean the HAMAS fighter is going to grab yetanother "shield" next
time he sees an Israeli.
While I agree with you on your point about winning more people over,
what's their option besides surrendering to HAMAS?
I don't know that they have one. At least not a good one. With a few
million people to hide among even preventing Hamas from launching the
occasional rocket attack is going to be impossible.
Though I wonder if they treated the Gazan residents better if they
could have won over their support for Israel at getting rid of Hamas.
I'm not sure it could work now but at least making sure Gaza is
getting food/water/medical supplies would limit the # of people who
might support Hamas.
Hamas is the group that is "appropriating" the food/water/medicine sent
to Gaza.
I know but Israel has also been limiting the support available. If
they didn't there would be more food/water/medicine coming in than
Hamas could take control of. There's no lack of supplies available if
only it were easy to get them into Gaza.
What makes you think Hamas wouldn't just destroy whatever supplies they
couldn't keep? They are LONG past the point of thinking "We must make
our fellow Palestinians miserable and desperate so they will hate the
Jews more and join us in killing them!"
Ideally that would result in the rest of Palestinians turning against
Hamas. That doesn't seem to be happening but if they know that Hamas
is fully responsible for them not getting the aid they need then they
should turn against Hamas. If the alternative is starving to death as
being mentioned over and over again you would think that would be
enough to force the Gazans to attack Hamas even if that means some die
as they were going to die anyway.
Do I expect it to happen? No, not given what we've seen happen so far
but it should be what happens.
Hamas has all the weapons, many of them are "covert" so the general
population never knows who might be Hamas (secret police anyone?) and
have been abused by various Palestinian "militias" for a couple of
generations now. An entire population that is a battered wife. Their
choices are "fight back" and immediately die, probably getting their
family killed too, or keep their heads down and live a bit longer.
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
The Horny Goat
2024-11-19 18:15:14 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 02:26:48 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Ideally that would result in the rest of Palestinians turning against
Hamas. That doesn't seem to be happening but if they know that Hamas
is fully responsible for them not getting the aid they need then they
should turn against Hamas. If the alternative is starving to death as
being mentioned over and over again you would think that would be
enough to force the Gazans to attack Hamas even if that means some die
as they were going to die anyway.
Do I expect it to happen? No, not given what we've seen happen so far
but it should be what happens.
While I agree with you if HAMAS has the weapons and the rest of the
population of Gaza doesn't then you know what the odds of that are.
The Horny Goat
2024-11-19 18:03:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 11:43:30 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Hamas is the group that is "appropriating" the food/water/medicine sent
to Gaza.
I know but Israel has also been limiting the support available. If
they didn't there would be more food/water/medicine coming in than
Hamas could take control of. There's no lack of supplies available if
only it were easy to get them into Gaza.
Somebody on Quora posted a picture of what were said to be captured
HAMAS members who all looked like they hadn't missed any meals - if
nothing else had had multiple breakfasts.
shawn
2024-11-19 20:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 11:43:30 -0500, shawn
Post by shawn
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Hamas is the group that is "appropriating" the food/water/medicine sent
to Gaza.
I know but Israel has also been limiting the support available. If
they didn't there would be more food/water/medicine coming in than
Hamas could take control of. There's no lack of supplies available if
only it were easy to get them into Gaza.
Somebody on Quora posted a picture of what were said to be captured
HAMAS members who all looked like they hadn't missed any meals - if
nothing else had had multiple breakfasts.
Then I heard about a convoy of food that was going into Gaza and got
attacked while still in Israel. So the supplies aren't even safe
inside of the supposed protected area in Israel.
Adam H. Kerman
2024-11-18 19:16:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by shawn
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by shawn
Ideally, in my opinion, Hamas would be gone and the Palestinian
people would be allowed to control their own fate but that doesn't
seem likely to happen in my lifetime, if ever. Israel is just helping
to win more people over to Hamas by their killing of innocent
civilians in an attempt to wipe out Hamas leaders. Which just means
the fighting will likely keep going on and on and on.
Given HAMAS routinely uses 'innocent civilians' as human shields if
the Israeli soldier spots the HAMAS guy with a weapon he's going to
shoot first and ask questions later.
At best, that's going to mean a wounded civilian - which is just going
to mean the HAMAS fighter is going to grab yetanother "shield" next
time he sees an Israeli.
While I agree with you on your point about winning more people over,
what's their option besides surrendering to HAMAS?
I don't know that they have one. At least not a good one. With a few
million people to hide among even preventing Hamas from launching the
occasional rocket attack is going to be impossible.
Though I wonder if they treated the Gazan residents better if they
could have won over their support for Israel at getting rid of Hamas.
I'm not sure it could work now but at least making sure Gaza is
getting food/water/medical supplies would limit the # of people who
might support Hamas.
How does that work, shawn? Hamas took over in 2007 after defeating
Fatah. Hamas then proceeded to assasinate all the remaining Fatah
politicians. How could Israel "get" food/water/medical supplies to
residents in a way that they wouldn't be diverted to Hamas? Or ensure
that all foreign aid wasn't taken by Hamas to build weapons?

What is it about Hamas being in total control of the Gaza Strip for
nearly two decades don't you understand?
The Horny Goat
2024-11-19 18:04:11 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 19:16:52 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
How does that work, shawn? Hamas took over in 2007 after defeating
Fatah. Hamas then proceeded to assasinate all the remaining Fatah
politicians. How could Israel "get" food/water/medical supplies to
residents in a way that they wouldn't be diverted to Hamas? Or ensure
that all foreign aid wasn't taken by Hamas to build weapons?
What is it about Hamas being in total control of the Gaza Strip for
nearly two decades don't you understand?
Realistically once the delivery truck crosses the border how could
they prevent such diversion?
Adam H. Kerman
2024-11-19 18:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
How does that work, shawn? Hamas took over in 2007 after defeating
Fatah. Hamas then proceeded to assasinate all the remaining Fatah
politicians. How could Israel "get" food/water/medical supplies to
residents in a way that they wouldn't be diverted to Hamas? Or ensure
that all foreign aid wasn't taken by Hamas to build weapons?
What is it about Hamas being in total control of the Gaza Strip for
nearly two decades don't you understand?
Realistically once the delivery truck crosses the border how could
they prevent such diversion?
The UN aid convoys require armed peacekeeper protection. Without
armed peacekeepers allowed to defend against attacks, the aid cannot be
distributed to civilians. Either desperate people or Hamas units are the
ones attacking the convoys.
Dimensional Traveler
2024-11-20 16:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
How does that work, shawn? Hamas took over in 2007 after defeating
Fatah. Hamas then proceeded to assasinate all the remaining Fatah
politicians. How could Israel "get" food/water/medical supplies to
residents in a way that they wouldn't be diverted to Hamas? Or ensure
that all foreign aid wasn't taken by Hamas to build weapons?
What is it about Hamas being in total control of the Gaza Strip for
nearly two decades don't you understand?
Realistically once the delivery truck crosses the border how could
they prevent such diversion?
The UN aid convoys require armed peacekeeper protection. Without
armed peacekeepers allowed to defend against attacks, the aid cannot be
distributed to civilians. Either desperate people or Hamas units are the
ones attacking the convoys.
UN Peacekeepers are usually under rules of engagement that effectively
deny them the ability to USE any weapons they have.
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
Adam H. Kerman
2024-11-20 18:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
How does that work, shawn? Hamas took over in 2007 after defeating
Fatah. Hamas then proceeded to assasinate all the remaining Fatah
politicians. How could Israel "get" food/water/medical supplies to
residents in a way that they wouldn't be diverted to Hamas? Or ensure
that all foreign aid wasn't taken by Hamas to build weapons?
What is it about Hamas being in total control of the Gaza Strip for
nearly two decades don't you understand?
Realistically once the delivery truck crosses the border how could
they prevent such diversion?
The UN aid convoys require armed peacekeeper protection. Without
armed peacekeepers allowed to defend against attacks, the aid cannot be
distributed to civilians. Either desperate people or Hamas units are the
ones attacking the convoys.
UN Peacekeepers are usually under rules of engagement that effectively
deny them the ability to USE any weapons they have.
The UN is the international agency failing to enforce the peace. Its
involvement prevents understanding. The UN's assistance fails to protect
civilians and creates conditions likely to lead to the next war.

Ubiquitous
2024-11-16 09:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Apoplexy? Try sheer frustration at the insistence by Democrats that
letting in 10-20 million unvetted people wasn't a problem.
Apparently doing anything other than throwing open the metaphorical doors and
standing back while the entire Southern Hemisphere floods into the country is
"apoplexy" for the Pigs of the world.
Somewhat ironically, leftistsd get apopleptic at the mere mention securing the border...
Post by BTR1701
Post by Rhino
Clearly a LOT
of people disagree and will welcome Homan's efforts to solve the problem
- at least initially. (Inevitably, some sad stories will become public
as these deportations kick in and, Americans being a good and decent
people, may find that they want to make some exceptions to what might
initially be a fairly hard line.)
I'm just happy to have a "border czar" (although I hate that term and really
wish we hadn't adopted the practice of using an honorific from Russia's days
of dictatorial royalty to refer to our public officials) that doesn't dance
in the streets with open borders activists singing "Up, up, with education,
down, down with deportation!"
I'm not keen on the use of "Czar" either (what is with Dem's obsession with
Russia?) but it will be great to see the border restored to order.
--
Don't jump!
Ubiquitous
2024-11-16 09:30:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by moviePig
Post by BTR1701
'Bout damn time.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1856344458259734528/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/64Ai02EiWiLnc_TM.mp4
The Rise of Apoplexy...
Strawman noted.
Projection noted.

Get back to us when you have a real argument to make.

--
Let's go Brandon!
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